Students Using Altimeters

[Schroeder 0]

Hi everyone.
Ok, Question is:
Should students attending their FJC exiting solo (obviously), be given altimeters?
I only pose this question because I recently brought a friend to a DZ for her FJC. She was told that she'd be making the jump without an altimeter. Didn't strike her as strange, but it did seem that way to me. Now, the instructor knows his stuff, and I didn't want to come off as some smart-ass, so I left it alone. She ended up not jumping due to cloud cover. So I'm asking because I was wondering about the reasons that instructors would send a FJC student out without an alti. Sure they have radio, and an alti might only confuse them, but when my radio went out on my first jump, I was definately glad I had that Altimeter.
So, reasons why/whynot?
"If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me?"

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

They should definataly have one. You've got to start using them sometime, so you need to be taught it on your FJC.
I'm not crazy - I'm a Skydiver

[Vallerina 2]

Yikes! I can't imagine what would happen if a first-time jumper had a problem with their main and didn't know what altitude they were at. Even though no one should rely on an altimeter, my impression was that it was still useful on the way to altitude to train one's eyes to how a certain altitude "looks". Plus, I thought it was required for students to use an altimeter.
"Save me Jebus!" Homer Simpson

[bmcd308 0]

I say give the student an alti. Your early skydives teach you habits that are hard to break. How many students have a backsliding problem on AFF1 because on their tandem they had it in their mind that their feet should be on their TI's butt? I say give the students all the tools and teach them to use them.
Brent

[Ralf 0]

Are we talking S/L, AFF or Tandem for the first jump?
When I started, you did not get an Altimeter untill you started doing 10 second delays. (for me, my 11th jump). As for radio, that was never thought of, you looked at the pea's, imagin you are in the center and turn to face the jumpmaster who is on the edge indicating which way to turn. Simple, no problem with radio failure.
If you are doing AFF, tandem, or high performance canopies (squares), I think an altimeter, (and radio) are required to be safe and good training. The S/L with a round canopy should still have them.

[PhillyKev 0]

2001 SIM
Section 2-1
K.
2. All students are to be equipped with the following equipment until they obtain a USPA A license:
c. A visually accessibly altimeter [Not Waiverable]
Unless there not a USPA dz, that's a definite no no.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[Schroeder 0]

We're talking IAD out of a cessna 206 at around 3-4 grand under squares. When my radio went out on my first jump (at a different DZ, with alti), and had to bring it in, I landed about 100m off, but I landed safely. I couldn't see or hear anything from the ground, and had to rely on the alti for the first time to make sure I wasn't going downwind too low to make base/final turns. The first time you're that high, on your own, you aren't the best judge of height. So I think one should be used, but obviously this other DZ thought otherwise, and I was just wondering why.
Ok, that's for USPA, but I'm in Canada. What about CSPA?
"If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me?"

[Ralf 0]

Yes, I know that the USPA BSR say the student must have an altimeter. You can follow the regs, and still be dangerous, and you can break the regs, and be safe. These are exceptions and I don't recommend breaking the regs unless you carefully think about the results. You can look at the question from what is safe, and what do the regs say. Best to think of both.
The IAD is basicly for this, like a S/L jump. A round canopy does not have much forward drive, and an altimeter can cause the student to fixate on it and not keep his head up. I would not call this a major safety issure, howerver, follow the BSR's and have an altimeter. For the square, even a student square, the forward speed is much more, and flying the pattern is more critical. Also the pattern for squares is much farther from the LZ, and the perception for the student jumper is harder. The student should be required to have an altimeter (both BSR's and significant safety issue).
If you disagree with my statement on the round, please tell me the landing pattern you are using. (Don't say same as a square.)
Ralf

[Hooknswoop 19]

I would not take a student up w/o them being equipped w/ an altimeter. Be it Tandem, S/L, or AFF. No altimeter, no jump. Of course I usually don't wear one, unless I am w/ a student or doing something weird.
Hook

[Ralf 0]

Hook, your point????
You have a good and safe policy that is IAW the BSR's. By the way, I have the same policy. I was trying to give some insight, not throw policy into someone face.
Ralf Stinson

[PhillyKev 0]

Wasn't trying to throw anything in anyone's face. He asked should they have an altimeter, and why or why not. I think that's a pretty valid reason why they should. Yes, most safety decision should be personal, but no altimeter? What benefit could that possibly have? It's not going to train you to recognize altitude visually. If you don't have a point of reference (eg. an altimeter) you won't be able to correlate what you're seeing with an altitude.
If you start talking AAD no AAD, RSL no RSL there's room for debate there. I personally don't see any reason why a first time jumper, or anyone else, should not have an altimeter. It may be safe for an experienced jumper to not use one if they can recognize altitude accurately without one, but I guarantee a student can't.
Also when they start going solo they will need to rely on it. That means more than wearing it, they have to look at it. They should start training right away having one on and looking at it frequently.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[skycat 0]

btw...how many places still train their students on rounds? I can't think of any here in the US that do, but I could be wrong.

[MarkM 0]

Before this explodes into flamefest 2002.
I don't think Ralf was saying "no altimeter is fine", I think he was trying to find the context of the jump to put it into perspective.
I don't think PhillyKev was trying to throw regs into anyone's face, he was pointing out that in the US the DZ is pretty much required to slap one on a student. If they're not following that reg, then what other regs are they not following?
Why would they not put a student out with an alti? Who knows. Maybe they had a bad experience once where a student focused too much on the alti and not the radio. Maybe they just don't feel a FJC student really needs one since he'll be under a chute right out of the plane and will be following the radio down. Maybe they ran out.

[PhillyKev 0]

True...I wasn't directing my questions at Ralf, they were rhetorical. No flaming here
During my student jumps I frequently saw the instructors scrambling to find an alti for the student, or borrowing one as they board the plane. Reason being apparently a lot of first time tandems take the alti as a souvenier. I have a feeling maybe this instructor just didn't have an extra, or doesn't want to risk losing one.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[Hooknswoop 19]

Sorry, I guess I really didn't make a point :-)
Regardless of the BSR's, I think it is unwise to take up a student w/o and altimeter.
It is an important tool for them to learn to use.
Even w/ S/L & IAD, where initially anyway, they don't have to pull, if their main has line twists or whatever, they need to have an altimeter to know what altitude they are at so they know how much altitude they have to fix it. It also serves as good reference for starting their landing pattern.
W/ every tandem jump I have done, the passenger was trained to wave-off at 5,500 ft and pull and throw. If I managed to knock myself out on exit or the cameraman managed to nail me, it would be very possible that the passenger would pull for us and we wouldn't have to rely on a battery operated eloctronic device to save our collective butts.
I don't think I have to cover AFF. "Remember, wave off and pull at 5,500 Feet, OK?". "Sure, but how do I know when I am at 5,500 feet?". "Door!"
I don't see any advantages for the student not wearing an altimeter.
If the DZ is worried about altimeters being taken as souviners, require a drivers license or keys as collateral. I have seen that done.
Hook

[Schroeder 0]

wow go for lunch, and all these replies. Cool. Thanks for everyone's insight. I myself am a newbie with 19 jumps which is, comparativley, nothing. In my limited experience, I've never once not used an alti. From the very first moments of my first IAD, I've found them to be EXREMELY handy, and totally think every new jumper should have em. That's why I was surprised when I was told that the entire class my friend was in wasn't gonna be using them. After asking why, I believe the reply was: "Because they have enough stuff to worry about" *not 100% sure on that, because it was in november, but reasonalby sure.*
So after all this time, I remembered for some reason and thought I'd ask you guys.
"If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me?"

[billvon 3,070]

Most of the answers I would give have already been covered, so I wont repeat them, other than to say that there are several good reasons to use one and no good reasons to _not_ use one. I would mention that I've jumped at places that cut corners for cost - not using RSL's was one such cost saving measure. ("Hey, we have an SOS, we don't need RSL's!") I saw the results of those kind of measures firsthand, and I would hope that other DZ's do not decide they need to discover firsthand why the BSR's were written - and what they were written in.
-bill von

[kwmontreal 0]

YES!! Even if they don't start to use it for a couple of jumps it is there. They will pick up the habit of using it soon enough. If I were visiting a DZ where they didn't equipment them with altis, they would sure as hell hear about it from me, and I would make it a point to tell the students my reasoning before leaving what I would consider an unsafe dropzone. My .02.
Jump safe
Kent

[Schroeder 0]

Huh. Thanks guys.
"If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me?"

[lazerq3 0]

I cant imagine how you guys can go up there without an Alt!!! I mean yes you should learn to use your eyes and stuff but WOW ......what if like was mention before you have a mal....I mean if you have a dytter I guess that would work but then those go out sometimes too!! Hey I'm not preaching...its your jump I just dont think I could do it!! But then I guess someone could ask me how I can jump w/out an aad!! But thats another thread jason

[dayle 0]

Hello all, my .02.....
Your a Canadian jumper aren't you???? CSPA BSR's for students say that an alti must be worn when the delay exceeds 10 seconds.......Since a S/L or IAD from a Cessna opens instantly....(or so we hope.....lol) no alti is required.
I must say however that when I did some S/L's i never wore an alti. It didn't effect me at all. As a student I was just taught to inspect my opening canopy and if there was a problem deal with it immediately.....I didn't need to know how high I was, infact, that could in some circumstances possibly cause I student to freeze.IMHO
Also, reagarding the squares.....CSPA does not allow students to jump round mains.