Remster 30 #1 February 14, 2002 I think this debate is appropriate here. If not, let me know, and I'll kick it up in talk back.From the forum description:-A forum for all skydivers at all levels who believe in safety as the #1 priority in skydiving -Now, dont get me wrong, safety is important. But if safety is the #1 priority, then none of us would be jumping. As far as I can tell, we all have another #1 priority: why else put ourselves 10 seconds away from emminent death on every single jump?... why else would people do high speed landings?... why else would people do big formations (either FF or RW)?... Heck, why do any FF if it exceeds the manufaturers TSO limits?For some, it the fun, other the rush, other the challenge, others coz the chicks dig it (dont laugh, for some it is....)Safety should be a factor, an important one, on every jump, but the #1 priority?This obviously isnt a right or wrong debate as each individual has different motivations...What do you think?RemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #2 February 14, 2002 I think this is taking into account that people do high performance landings etc., and we should be doing this as safely as is possible. You shouldn't put a knife in the toaster - but you're an adult now !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3fLiEr 0 #3 February 14, 2002 I agree its not #1 as a priority.............. but in the aircraft it is..... I am for ever checking my chest strap, my teflon, getting my teflon pins checked before I go................... but then I get out have fun ....... perhaps smoke it low and then hook it low to get more ground rush............. I think safety is #1 in the preparation of the jump, in training towards the skills needed to be safe in the air/under canopy but after it becomes nature its just a sub-consious thought (awarness in the sky under canopy etc) the #1 priority once out is to live and love life................ which I like to do by doing things that are dangerous (but have prepared for safely)......................Just my 2 low pulls and 2 low hooks worth.........bsbd"In a world where we are slaves to gravity I am pleased to be a freedom fighter" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #4 February 14, 2002 Remster,You have a point there. It isn't safe, and someone 100% safety-minded wouldn't do it. But if you look at it on a relative scale, it is very important. (Which I think you'd agree with.) Perhaps it just sounds better than:"A forum for skydivers who think safety is pretty important, considering we are all idiots anyway."Besides, having a "safety as our first priority" forum is good to show the spouse. Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #5 February 14, 2002 For me, safety is always #1. Before the jump, on the plane, during the jump, under canopy, walking back to the hanger, packing my shit and then all over again. This sport is too dangerous to not be taken seriously and be as safe as possible. Before I jump, I always check all my gear and the gear of others that I can. While on the plane, I go over my stuff once again and give pin checks to all those that put their back to me. On the jump, I always check my alti ALL the time and keep an eye on the ground until break-off and pull time. Then, when it is under canopy time, I always keep people in view and set-up my landing so there is no one around me. Yeah, I load my canopy more than I probably should, but I like it and I fly it conservatively. Also, I am willing to accept responsiblity if something happens to me. So far, 9 jumps on the 169 and not one of them has been near "rough". Finally, when packing, I make sure that everything is packed as good as I can and I check over my container/harness for anything that might have happened on the last jump.This is what I do because as Skybytch said, "If you do everything right and have the latest in safety gear, you can still get hurt or die". So, if I do as much as I possibly can, I can feel good in knowing that I at least did what I could.So, YES, safety is absolutely #1 in my book on all parts of the skydive. Remember, if you screwup some jump because you busy dealing with a problem and/or watching your alti, BIG DEAL, you will still have the chance to jump again. But if you didn't screwup the jump and had a problem, then you may never jump again.JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #6 February 14, 2002 Quote"A forum for skydivers who think safety is pretty important, considering we are all idiots anyway."heheheRemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #7 February 14, 2002 Remi,I think there is a significant difference between leading your life as safe as possible and having safety as your #1 priority during skydiving. Granted most people who would lead there life as safe as possible would not throw themselves out of an airplane. However, that does not preclude that you can be as safe as possible while pushing your limits...Just my $0.02SkyDekker"We cannot do great things, only small things with great love" Mother Theresa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #8 February 14, 2002 Well I dunno.... I sum up my personal #1 priorities on every skydive in my sig - pull and flare. Those are the two things I can do, other than not jump, that are likely to keep me alive and uninjured. I've always considered skydiving to be a "risk management" sport. You consider all the risks, do what you can to reduce them and then go do what you love to do because you've decided that the reward is worth it. Every person has their own level of "risk tolerance" - that's why some of us jump big canopies and some of us jump pocket rockets, why some of us do big ways and some of us don't, why some of us BASE jump and some of us wouldn't think of BASE jumping... and that's why some people will be forever chained to thier couches and never really live life. pull and flare,lisa--What would Scooby Doo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #9 February 14, 2002 Safety is relative to common sense.. Some people don't have the mental capacity to be what we call safe.. Also, any day of the week driving to work on the highway you are 10 seconds away from imminent death.. The most dangerous part of skydiving is driving to the dropzone. You have a better chance "providing you don't do something that warrants getting hurt" getting struck by lightning on a clear day than you do getting hurt skydiving. Safety is also relative "like you said" to the risks that you are willing to take, skill level, and experience. Derek is "safer" jumping his VX60 than most people jumping their bigger more docile canopies. Somewhat like Derek said I believe it is more a matter of filling up your bag of experience before you empty your bag of luck. We also make our luck by making good decisions, properly planning, having a disaster recovery plan on each jump. After all if you fail to plan you are planning to fail. What some people consider safe others consider CRAZY!! But damn.. We are all doing this to have fun and live for a change now aren't we ...Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #10 February 14, 2002 QuoteThe most dangerous part of skydiving is driving to the dropzone. Which statistics did you get this from?Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #11 February 14, 2002 It's pretty simple. cmmon man... More people get struck by lightning EVERY year in Florida than get hurt skydiving.. Ask Skymama. Not to mention they probably get struck while walking to the car ready to goto work??!? Then if the lightning doesn't get them look at the number of car accidents per year vs the number of skydives/injuries a year.Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarcusV 0 #12 February 14, 2002 I can't believe this.One must be either blind or naive or totally ignorant or a whuffo or a troll or altogether to believe this.Blues Marcus--Perfect speed, my son, is being there. - Jonathan Livingston Seagull Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #13 February 14, 2002 Florida ALONE suffers 5-10 fatalities a year to lightning strikes.. That's not counting people that get struck and live..Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #14 February 14, 2002 http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/060501/met_6352603.htmlCheck it out for yourself.. Then BELIEVE it.. I've seen 3 people DIE on a golf course in Fl.Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #15 February 14, 2002 but how many skydivers die of lightning strikes in Florida each year? or how many skydivers die in crashes driving to or from the DZ?The comparison of 2 diffferent risks only makes sense if you only count the people who are exposed to both risks.(have I just been trolled?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #16 February 14, 2002 Take it for what it is worth my friend.. The average Joe that has never skydived has an OVER EXAGGERATED picture of how dangerous skydiving is. Skydivers tend not to die being struck by lightning because they aren't allowed to go in the air in a thunderstorm.. Duh.. That goes back to safety. Common sense. The day I was to make my 2nd tandem back in 1998 we saw lightning 15 miles away and took the plane back down. It is very dangerous. I don't need to argue this point any further as I am correct in what I am saying. But if you want to continue I am game.In the United States from 1980 through 1995, a total of 1318 deaths were attributed to lightning, (average: 82 deaths per year {range: 53-100 deaths}). Of the 1318 persons who died, 1125 (85%) were male, and 896 (68%) were aged 15-44 years. The annual death rate from lightning was highest among persons aged 15-19 years (6 deaths per 10,000,000 population; crude rate: 3 per 10,000,000). The greatest number of deaths attributable to lightning occurred in Florida and Texas (145 and 91, respectively), but New Mexico, Arizona, Arkansas, and Mississippi had the highest rates (10.0, 9.0, 9.0, and 9.0, respectively). Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #17 February 14, 2002 http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarcusV 0 #18 February 14, 2002 Rhino,don't get me wrong. What I mean with ignorant and blind and naive is that there are people running around and telling people skydiving is absolutely not dangerous, you just have to be cool, the risk do die while lying in the sun is much higher and all this. Cmon, you can tell this your grandma - and it's okay then.But do you really believe driving in the car is the most dangerous part in skydiving? Really believe that when thinking about?You cannot compare skydiving and driving in a car or get struck by lightning with some statistics (this alone is a bit, hm, senseless). And if you do - you can interprete it as you want. Start thinking! You have a brain! Think of life before you think of death, Rhino.Blues Marcus--Perfect speed, my son, is being there. - Jonathan Livingston Seagull Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #19 February 14, 2002 This is not a personal attack on you, but that is such a stupid argument. If you want the two to be comparable, take all the people who have been killed by being struck by lightening and divide that by all the people who have been in any situation where there is even the remotest possibility of being hit. Then take the total number of skydivers who have "gone in" for whatever reason and died, and divide that by the total number of people who have done a skydive.Now you have 2 percentages that are functionally the the same. Compare those two numbers. You can't just go simply by numbers of people in each category, because the sample population of each group is vastly different. It's the same thing with comparing the safely of skydiving to driving a car."Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarcusV 0 #20 February 14, 2002 That's what I wanted to write just now - thanks :-)If you compare statistics, do it the right way.Blues Marcus--Perfect speed, my son, is being there. - Jonathan Livingston Seagull Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #21 February 14, 2002 Just check out the links I posted.. Compare for yourself.. lolBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #22 February 14, 2002 Good points. In flying, we say that safety is not actions. Safety is an attitude. An attitude that let's us decide if a certain course of action is safe for me. Me alone. Rickster Powell can pull a gnarly hook down into a twelve foot ditch, pull up, swoop the lip, and land outside the lip standing up. Safely. He has the experience, practice, skill, and attitude to do it safely. If I tried that it would be down right dangerous. Not to mention dumb. Safety is an individual thing in skydiving and it is an attitude. That's the best way I can describe it.Chris SchindlerD-19012ATP/CFIIwww.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #23 February 14, 2002 Safety is also preventive maintenance..Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff 0 #24 February 14, 2002 sheesh....I meant skydivers dying of lightning strikes including when they're on the ground, not skydiving.You have to compare the number of people who die out of the number exposed to the risk, because most people are not exposed to the risk of skydiving.According to you:Deaths per person exposed to the risk of lightning strikes: maximum 10 per 10,000,000 or 1 per million. (this assumes that everyone in New Mexico has the same risk, which I admit isn't quite true.)But out of 35000 USPA members, about 30 die per year, so that's a risk of about 1 per 1000 rather than 1 per million.Geoff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #25 February 14, 2002 I wouldn't know how many die on the way do the DZ.. We might never know?? After all they are dead and never make it?There are ALOT more skydivers than are in the USPA.OVERALL., you have a better chance dying of lightning than skydiving. OR a car accident. PROVIDING you make good decisions and are "safe".People should quit harping on how "dangerous" skydiving is and harp more on how fun it is.. And how dangerous it is to drive to the same job for 30 years never having lived "skydived". You are making it sound more dangerous then it really is. We need to be bringing new people to the sport not scaring them away. The more "newbies" skydiving, the more money the DZ makes, the better planes we get to jump, and the sport stays alive "the way we want it to" indefinately.Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
