Remember When..........$$$

[gunpaq 1]

Remember when gear was less than $200 for a complete rig.
Here is an ad from July 1967 found in Skydiver Magazine.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[Tink1717 2]

I don't know if I would have ever trusted a $200 rig.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[billbooth 10]

I priced my first "Wonderhog" at $225, which was the same as a new Para Commander. I wish now I had priced it at $550, which is what the first commercial ram air, the Para Plane, cost at the time. If I had, rigs might be twice as expensive as they are today, and I would have retired long ago.

Jacques Istel once mused to me, that if he had just priced the PC $100 higher, he would have made a million dollars more on the 10,000 total PC's that were ever sold. What amazed me about that statement, was the fact that only 10,000 PC were ever sold. After all, it had little or no competition for a long time. Just shows how much smaller the sport was back then.

[JerryBaumchen 1,422]

Hi Bill,

Quote

After all, it had little or no competition for a long time.

Being a little older than you, I was around in those days.

The CrossBow system came on the market in the Spring of '64 and the XBO main canopy was priced at $224.50; this is what 'set' the price for the ParaCommander when it came on the market in the Summer of '64 at $225.

Security priced their products on their mfg costs & a fair profit margin, not on 'what the market would bear.'

JerryBaumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,422]

Hi Robert,

Your calculations do not count for the fact that the $200 rig was actually a military surplus rig. You are comparing a military surplus rig to a new sport rig.

I have no idea what the military paid for them but they were sold in lots of 25 to 150 or so. ParaGear and TriState bought them for about $25 each in those lot sizes.

They then added D-rings to attach the chest pack reserve, main container tiedowns to secure the chest pack reserve, added a tiedown strap for the chest pack reserve, modified the cheapo canopy & built a sleeve for the cheapo canopy.

The only thing new in those military surplus rigs in that ad was the sleeve.

JerryBaumchen

[skybill 22]

Hi John,
'Got that issue of SDM in my archives. Gear (Surplus) was cheap back then. 'Got my first harness & container B-4 for $10. and the canopy for another $10. Some jumper had a spare sleeeve I got for $5. That was in 1964 in La. 'Gotta remember Gas was .29 cents a gallon and ya' could get a Volkswagen Bug for $1995!! A good job paid $4.00/hr!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[gunpaq 1]

Hi Bill,

Still have my first new rig, your WonderHog Sprint w/2,500+ jumps and my first Vector w/bookoo jumps as well. Both still airworthy but sit on the rack in my loft as fond reminders of jumps past.

Thanks.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[steve1 5]

When I started in "71", you could buy a good condition B-12 main container with a 7-TU for around a $120. A belly mount reserve (with a 24 ft. canopy inside) might be $50 to $75. A first jump course was $50. That included your first static line jump. Most people had a Bell motorcycle helmet someplace or a good pair of leather boots.

I was a starving college kid back then, but I could still afford to jump......I know inflation makes a big difference, but I really feel the cost of skydiving is much more today.

[Deisel 38]

Yes you are correct. But I would challenge you to point to a single industry in the world in which prices have not increased. If you find one I would bet that there will have been very little, if any, new technology in that industry.

We have had many developments in skydiving that can account for the increased costs. A professional instructor corps, bigger and faster planes, law suits, etc. have all driven up costs. Bigger and better = $$

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[steve1 5]

Deisel

Yes you are correct. But I would challenge you to point to a single industry in the world in which prices have not increased. If you find one I would bet that there will have been very little, if any, new technology in that industry.

We have had many developments in skydiving that can account for the increased costs. A professional instructor corps, bigger and faster planes, law suits, etc. have all driven up costs. Bigger and better = $$

But.....I'll bet you aren't having any more fun than we did!

Well....maybe it just seemed like more fun....looking back forty years. After all, those were the good old days!

I guess I don't miss hard landings, multiple malfunctions, rear PLF's on wind days, dangerous aircraft, few rules, friends who bounced....maybe I need to rethink things. It was definitely more dangerous to jump back then.

But at the risk of being a negative old fart......Maybe everything isn't better today. I really think there were fewer jumpers who thought they were too good to jump with a newbie, back then. More experienced jumpers often jumped with the less experienced jumpers to help train them. They didn't consider it a wasted jump. They didn't expect to get paid for it.

I think things have become a lot more clickish today, and that may be one thing that is a detriment to modern day skydiving. I know of many who have quit the sport because of this factor alone.....

Back in the day, we all jumped together, and we partied together. Being a Newbie was nothing to be embarrassed by. You didn't have to be a sky-god to hang out with more experienced jumpers. There just seemed to be a different attitude then......

Am I the only one who feels that?

[JerryBaumchen 1,422]

Hi steve,

Quote

Am I the only one who feels that?

Nope,

JerryBaumchen

[33zulu 22]

Am I the only one who feels that?

[Nope,]


Ditto here.

[Deisel 38]

I agree completely. So at this stage in my jumping career - I consider myself to be intermediate - I kind of straddle the gap. I'm certainly not a newbie anymore and not quite an old fart just yet (but getting there much faster than I'd like to ).

There's no putting the genie back in the lamp. Turbines and tandems are here to stay. Commercial skydiving appears to be at odds with the culture. So what do we do?

What I believe is that that those of us who are not emotionally attached to the old days can have an impact here. The key will be to take the good stuff from the good old days and combine it with the good stuff that progress has brought about. There's a happy medium and I've got a few ideas on how to get us there.

D

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[BillyVance 34]

I only go as far back as those Mullins $99 Boogie Til Ya Pukes in the 90's where you paid that much to jump as much as you could with 1 rig in a 2 day weekend. Got as low as $6-7 per jump on my best weekend. Now that was cheap as all hell. The regular going rate at the time was $16 per jump to 14K feet. Now it's like $26-28 per jump.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Krip 2]

steve1

***Yes you are correct. But I would challenge you to point to a single industry in the world in which prices have not increased. If you find one I would bet that there will have been very little, if any, new technology in that industry.

We have had many developments in skydiving that can account for the increased costs. A professional instructor corps, bigger and faster planes, law suits, etc. have all driven up costs. Bigger and better = $$

But.....I'll bet you aren't having any more fun than we did!

Well....maybe it just seemed like more fun....looking back forty years. After all, those were the good old days!

I guess I don't miss hard landings, multiple malfunctions, rear PLF's on wind days, dangerous aircraft, few rules, friends who bounced....maybe I need to rethink things. It was definitely more dangerous to jump back then.

But at the risk of being a negative old fart......Maybe everything isn't better today. I really think there were fewer jumpers who thought they were too good to jump with a newbie, back then. More experienced jumpers often jumped with the less experienced jumpers to help train them. They didn't consider it a wasted jump. They didn't expect to get paid for it.

I think things have become a lot more clickish today, and that may be one thing that is a detriment to modern day skydiving. I know of many who have quit the sport because of this factor alone.....

Back in the day, we all jumped together, and we partied together. Being a Newbie was nothing to be embarrassed by. You didn't have to be a sky-god to hang out with more experienced jumpers. There just seemed to be a different attitude then......

Am I the only one who feels that?

With all due respect I agree with you 100%

Also peeps need to remember that military surplus doesn't necessarily mean used. It could still be new from the factory, just exceeded the shelf life or just no longer needed.. Govt regs are regs.

R

[ripcord4 0]

JerryBaumchen

Hi steve,

Quote

Am I the only one who feels that?

Nope,

JerryBaumchen

Nope!

[tbrown 26]

But at the risk of being a negative old fart......Maybe everything isn't better today. I really think there were fewer jumpers who thought they were too good to jump with a newbie, back then. More experienced jumpers often jumped with the less experienced jumpers to help train them. They didn't consider it a wasted jump. They didn't expect to get paid for it.

I think things have become a lot more clickish today, and that may be one thing that is a detriment to modern day skydiving. I know of many who have quit the sport because of this factor alone..... Back in the day, we all jumped together, and we partied together. Being a Newbie was nothing to be embarrassed by. You didn't have to be a sky-god to hang out with more experienced jumpers. There just seemed to be a different attitude then......

Am I the only one who feels that?
__________________________________________________

With all due respect, I guess I must have jumped at a different dropzone than yours, as I have to disagree. Where I came up, in the mid 1970's, the gods wouldn't touch us with a ten foot pole. I even remember once going up for a 6 Way, and halfway to altitude the gods told me and a friend they'd changed their mind and would be doing a 4 Way and my friend & I were on our own. There was also an ingredient of working class resentment against us college kids that belied the "no matter who you are or what you do for a living" myth. Definitely helped me grow a thick skin, the only reason I kept jumping was because I refused to quit in the face of some real hostility.

On the plus side, this bonded the newbies together in lifelong friendships, but we sure beat the crap out of each other and picked up all kinds of bad habits while learning to fly with each other. I have fellow newbie friends from those days I still keep in touch with - and a list of gods who I wouldn't give the time of day to if I met them on the street.

Cliques have always been a problem, and there have always been people who get pissed off and quit. But then again, some of those people just like to get pissed off or else they don't feel right (we all know someone like this).

Where I jump now, we have LO's who bend over backwards to bring the newbies up and to make visiting jumpers welcome. In my experience, things are much better thhat way. Guess our mileage just varies....

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[D22369 0]

Quote

But at the risk of being a negative old fart......Maybe everything isn't better today. I really think there were fewer jumpers who thought they were too good to jump with a newbie, back then. More experienced jumpers often jumped with the less experienced jumpers to help train them. They didn't consider it a wasted jump. They didn't expect to get paid for it.

I think things have become a lot more clickish today, and that may be one thing that is a detriment to modern day skydiving. I know of many who have quit the sport because of this factor alone.....

Back in the day, we all jumped together, and we partied together. Being a Newbie was nothing to be embarrassed by. You didn't have to be a sky-god to hang out with more experienced jumpers. There just seemed to be a different attitude then......

Am I the only one who feels that?

nope,
a few years back I wandered into an Oregon dz in time to gear up n meet the plane, obviously too late to get in on the 10 way as that group was already dirt diving I approached a pair of jumpers I didn't know and asked if they would be interested in making it a 3 way, sure! was the reply then one asked how many jumps I had so I told them - there was a long pause as they exchanged looks then the one doing the talking hesitantly said 'ummm, you probably don't want to jump with us, I only have 100 jumps, he's got 60...

I was incredulous... why wouldn't I want to fly with you guys was my response.

jumped with those two the remainder of the day, by the end of the day we were working on back ins and both were doing very good.

and I had a blast!

when I was a noob the high jump number jumpers went out of the way to pull me in and work with me - I recall one 4 way where the collective jump numbers were 12k - I had 80 or so.

I hate cliques and puffed up self important skygods.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Krip 2]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Robert,

Your calculations do not count for the fact that the $200 rig was actually a military surplus rig. You are comparing a military surplus rig to a new sport rig.

I have no idea what the military paid for them but they were sold in lots of 25 to 150 or so. ParaGear and TriState bought them for about $25 each in those lot sizes.

They then added D-rings to attach the chest pack reserve, main container tiedowns to secure the chest pack reserve, added a tiedown strap for the chest pack reserve, modified the cheapo canopy & built a sleeve for the cheapo canopy.

The only thing new in those military surplus rigs in that ad was the sleeve.

JerryBaumchen

hi Jerry

"With all due respect" I suggest you go back and read the ad. The 28 foot round for under $30 is "brand new in the mfg. box."

Think shelf life and expiration date.

Some of the "new" sleeves sold in a complete rigs weren't worth a crap. No mil spec so the dealers used whatever materials they wanted.

Some had a reputation of the pilots chute and the top of the sleeve separating from the lower part that contained the canopy.

Replacing those types of sleeves was a no brainer even if they were new.

R.

[JerryBaumchen 1,422]

Hi Robert,

Quote

"brand new in the mfg. box."

The ad can say that till the cows come home, it is still a military surplus rig. 'Brand new' only means that it has never been used.

You could not touch a truly 'brand new' military rig for $200.

JerryBaumchen

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Am I the only one who feels that?

No, things were different.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[airtwardo 7]

tbrown

But at the risk of being a negative old fart......Maybe everything isn't better today. I really think there were fewer jumpers who thought they were too good to jump with a newbie, back then. More experienced jumpers often jumped with the less experienced jumpers to help train them. They didn't consider it a wasted jump. They didn't expect to get paid for it.

I think things have become a lot more clickish today, and that may be one thing that is a detriment to modern day skydiving. I know of many who have quit the sport because of this factor alone..... Back in the day, we all jumped together, and we partied together. Being a Newbie was nothing to be embarrassed by. You didn't have to be a sky-god to hang out with more experienced jumpers. There just seemed to be a different attitude then......

Am I the only one who feels that?

__________________________________________________

With all due respect, I guess I must have jumped at a different dropzone than yours, as I have to disagree. Where I came up, in the mid 1970's, the gods wouldn't touch us with a ten foot pole. I even remember once going up for a 6 Way, and halfway to altitude the gods told me and a friend they'd changed their mind and would be doing a 4 Way and my friend & I were on our own. There was also an ingredient of working class resentment against us college kids that belied the "no matter who you are or what you do for a living" myth. Definitely helped me grow a thick skin, the only reason I kept jumping was because I refused to quit in the face of some real hostility.

On the plus side, this bonded the newbies together in lifelong friendships, but we sure beat the crap out of each other and picked up all kinds of bad habits while learning to fly with each other. I have fellow newbie friends from those days I still keep in touch with - and a list of gods who I wouldn't give the time of day to if I met them on the street.

Cliques have always been a problem, and there have always been people who get pissed off and quit. But then again, some of those people just like to get pissed off or else they don't feel right (we all know someone like this).

Where I jump now, we have LO's who bend over backwards to bring the newbies up and to make visiting jumpers welcome. In my experience, things are much better thhat way. Guess our mileage just varies....

Quote

Mileage notwithstanding...

I remember it being both ways ~ at the smaller club type DZ's everybody would jump with anybody.

At the more 'commercial' type places there were the skygod cliques that were tough to break into...funny part is 90% of the time, those skygods weren't all that much better than the dweebs they wouldn't give the time of day to!



Sure things have changed, they always will...

I get a kick out of just bein' there - the vibe isn't 70's maybe, but it does have a unique taste all it's own. Different doesn't have to mean bad!

Don't want me on YOUR load...okay fuck you, then don't drink MY beer!

The species that can't adapt to a new environment will become extinct...Know this - it's gonna be Cockroaches, Keith Richards & ME talkin' about the good ole days still to come!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[godziller 0]

16 years old, buying 5 cases of Rainer beer at the corner store next to the dropzone. Nothing more than a wink from the store owner because he knew "they" would only let me have 1 or 2.

I had the same gear as the skygods just more ripstop tape.

All the skygods would ask me to fly "base" for their 4 ways, and tell all the out of town females that I was still a virgin.

losing my virginity in the peas a couple times a month.

needle and thread in my gear bag so I could sew on my new patches "right away"

shot and half cutaways

spending my last dollar and waiting two months for my "french boots" I was the king of the world

"STP" sticker to cover the hole in my helmet

$150 for my homemade pigrig and duct taping my altimeter to my arm

Yes, things were different

[SCS292 1]

steve1

Back in the day, we all jumped together, and we partied together. Being a Newbie was nothing to be embarrassed by. You didn't have to be a sky-god to hang out with more experienced jumpers. There just seemed to be a different attitude then......

Am I the only one who feels that?

In 1972 I got my SCR and SCS on my 44th jump in a two Cessna load where they didn't have a qualified 8th. I'd say jumping with newbies wasn't a problem for the Galveston drop zone. Spiderman had his cherry popped on the same load with over 500 jumps in his logbook. Later, I was left out of some larger attempts in Valley Mills till I had consistently come in 10th a number of times. When the twin Beech wasn't full they would let me go last. After that, 30th out of the DC-3 was no problem with only 60 jumps in my logbook. I had good mentors who would go base and let me pin them starting on my 8th jump. My thanks to Steve Hazen and John Mincher and many others who took Steve and John's word that I wouldn't blow it.

P.S. - to stay on topic, I paid $75 for my first rig. A 28' 7TU and surplus harness, container, sleeve, a box of rubber bands, some break cord and a 24' unmodified reserve. I also got a jumpsuit with a hole in one leg where the guys tibia ripped through it on his last jump in that jumpsuit. A student opened below him and he was still in a leg cast when I bought it. At 22 years old I didn't consider all the implications of what a close call he had. Imagine landing a cheapo in the Texas wind with a bone, your bone, sticking out of your jumpsuit.

[steve1 5]

I remember when having 400 jumps was a lot of jumps. You might have had four or five near death experiences, with that many.

I was on a relative work team with B.J. Worth when I had 85 jumps (back in about 72). I might add that we beat the Air Force Academy in competition, at Boise, that year. It wasn't that we were that good, but rather nobody was that good.

Nobody had the thousands of jumps, you see today. It was just too hard to survive that many jumps on gear that let you down like a ton of bricks, and left you hurting. Jumping in the wind was down right scary.

Sometimes a newbie wasn't that much greener than those who were supposed to know what they were doing. One characteristic of jumpers then, was that they were young and tough. Jumping was just too brutal for an old fart to last long.

Yep, things were different then.....I'm not sure why I even miss those days so much. We sure had fun though!