Canopy size for small 1st solo students

[heims 0]

I have seen various discussions regarding small jumpers and wing loadings, and I wanted to get instructors' opinions as I start going for my ratings.

What size canopy would you put a 135 pound (exit weight) jumper on for their first jump with their own parachute (not tandem)? Why? If gear at your DZ is the limiting factor, what do you see as the "ideal" size and why?

Blue skies,
Sherri

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

We recently put a very-small girl through her AFF training under a Sabre2 150. Our smallest "standard" student canopy is a Navigator 220. While we were hesitant to do so, it was the only way to get this girl (Autumn Shultz, who posts here) in the air with a container that wasn't literally falling off of her. Thankfully, we had a very-small-harnessed Mirage container (brand new even) laying around which held sufficiently large canopies. She still loaded the 150 quite a bit under 1:1, so we did it and she did great.

Chuck

[GravityGirl 0]

I personally would choose a 190 for small students. Pushing it with a 170 for sub 100/lb.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[bodypilot1 0]

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Pushing it with a 170 for sub 100/lb.

At Byron where the wind is usually predominant?

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[GravityGirl 0]

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Pushing it with a 170 for sub 100/lb.

At Byron where the wind is usually predominant?

If the wind is too high for them to jump a 190, then it is too high to jump, period.

Not to say that they will not quickly downsize. But during that learning curve of reaching, flaring too high, flaring too low, ground fixation. Yes. 190.

Think. When the winds are marginal (14mph), student very commonly will get a side gust on landing and reach with the hand that is closest to the ground. They don't have that "counter-steer" instinct yet.

With my experience as an instructor at a windy drop zone I feel it is better to have a bigger canopy and get little penetration, than to have a smaller canopy and slam into the ground when a student fails to hold it into the wind properly. The latter is more common in my experiences. Until they feel that push and learn to counter steer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[bodypilot1 0]

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We recently put a very-small girl through her AFF training under a Sabre2 150. Our smallest "standard" student canopy is a Navigator 220. While we were hesitant to do so, it was the only way to get this girl (Autumn Shultz, who posts here) in the air with a container that wasn't literally falling off of her. Thankfully, we had a very-small-harnessed Mirage container (brand new even) laying around which held sufficiently large canopies. She still loaded the 150 quite a bit under 1:1, so we did it and she did great.

Chuck just brought up another great factor you need to look at when your student is small.

The correct harness/container will be a determining factor during the freefall portion of the skydive, and it too, should be fitted correctly for your small student.

Many times have I seen a harness/container that limits the students ability to arch because it sets too low on the student butt and also causes a problem with PRCD's and the pull.

Though it's hard for a DZ to keep every size canopy or harness/container for all the different size students that walk on to the DZ and say they want to skydive, NEVER forego safety just to get them in the air. It your responsability to as an Instructor to make the right decision to keep them safe.

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[heims 0]

What is the typical progression with them starting on the 190? What is the smallest you would put them on before they get their A license?

What canopy skills do you want to see from a student before having them step down to the next size canopy?

[pilotdave 0]

I'm not an instructor, but I was a small student (exit weight right around 135). First jump was with a PD170. Switched DZs for the rest of AFF and used the smallest they had...PD230s. Made a couple at another DZ with the only thing they had, a Manta 288.

But most of my first 40 or 50 jumps were under PD230s. Backing up was a very common problem for me. I often had to sit out when other students or low timers could jump because of my light loading. And the Manta was downright scary for me... just turned so slow I felt like I didn't have much control.

My instructors recommended a 135 for my first main. Didn't feel comfortable dropping almost 100 square feet in one step and went with a PD150.

All I know is those damn Mantas aren't meant for people like me!
Dave

[skydived19006 4]

We have six student rigs at my DZ, I keep a Triathlon 190 in one of them for the small first jump students (120 body weight or less), and for others to have a moderate canopy to transition down to. I keep a Mighty Mac for the bigger students, and the balance of the rigs have Mantas and Raven 4s. I’d love to upgrade some of the Mantas and Ravens to bit Triathlons (220, 230, 230s), Skymasters, or something comparable. Let me know if you have any lying around, and want to part with them for a reasonable price!
The rigs do have adjustable lift webs, but are big on small people, and short on tall guys.

Martin
Air Capital Drop Zone

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[riggerrob 643]

We have a total of 17 student rigs, all with adjustable harnesses.
Canopies range from a Goliath 340 to Hornet 190s.
Most first jump students start with Manta 290 or Skymaster 290.
Sometimes we give small students Skymaster 230s for their first jump. After a few good landings we shift them to Hornet 190s.

[heims 0]

So what is your average wing loading for a first jump student? And why do you have it at that level?

[skypuppy 1]

We have mostly manta/skymaster 290's with a couple of pd 260's for smaller students, and man o' wars for the real big guys.... Even in the rental gear with boc's, I think the smallest is a 220?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Canuck 0]

Years ago I watched a VERY small girl (about 5 ft. and deffinately sub 100 lbs) do her first jump (an IAD) on a Monarch 135. It wasn't so much that they wanted her under that small of a canopy, but the container it was in was the only one at the dropzone that came even close to fitting her safely.

Everything turned out fine, but it wasn't a call I would have made. Sometimes you just gotta know when to say no...

Canuck

[shunkka 0]

sadly on our DZ students can jump only on MANTA-290
it`s a huge canopy but very forgivnes..
small jumpers on big canopy`s can be dangerous?
i saw a 145 cm girl with 45 kg (with all the gear on!!) that`s somewhere at 100 lbs jumping this 290 main
if my math is corect this is somewhere at 0,34 wingloadinding
how dangerous can it be?
note: only SL progresion on my DZ and winds are generaly 3-6 m/s

-------------------------
"jump, have fun, pull"

[tspillers 0]

Sherri,

We are about to be in this exact situation. We have a student that is 130 exit weight.

We will put her on a Navigator 200 or a Sabre 2 190.

130 lbs 200 sq' .65 wl
130 lbs 190 sq' .68 wl

Compare to me:

215 lbs 300 sq' .7 wl

I have jumped the Nav 300 and it works fine in wind student wind conditions. I expect her to quickly (maybe even the next jump) move down (to 190 if 200, or 170 if we use the 190). I also anticipate it won't be long before she is on the 150 at .87 wl depending on her progression.

I just went through Scott Miller's Essentials and advanced course. I put a jump on the Navigator 240 at .89 wl. I was able to do many of the manuevers that we have students perform towards their A license. They did not respond like my velocity of course, but they did respond well enough to teach the concepts. For flat turns, I had to almost let on toggle all the way up to get a sufficient turn. That begins (with proper explanation) to teach the concept.

A smaller jump will get more response at the same wing loading due to the length of the lines. Although I will never be able to experience a .6-.8wl on a 190, I would imagine they can get more out of the lessons from the added response.

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[wmw999 2,439]

I'm no longer an instructor, but have a pretty decent number of jumps (probably in the couple hundreds) at under .8 wing loading on squares. It's not actively dangerous; I could drive into better winds than rounds (which I had just upgraded from), and consistently had standup landings where I wanted them.

These were largely 7-cells of course, but it's at least one data point.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DaGimp 0]

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We recently put a very-small girl through her AFF training under a Sabre2 150. Our smallest "standard" student canopy is a Navigator 220. While we were hesitant to do so, it was the only way to get this girl (Autumn Shultz, who posts here) in the air with a container that wasn't literally falling off of her. Thankfully, we had a very-small-harnessed Mirage container (brand new even) laying around which held sufficiently large canopies. She still loaded the 150 quite a bit under 1:1, so we did it and she did great.

Chuck

Not only that but we also just recently put up another very petite girl up on her first jump with autums rig, so a Saber2 150, again she did beautifully, granted Autum was there on the landing area to make sure the girl didnt turf her rig.

"Professor of Pimpology"~~~Bolas