Liemberg 0 #26 December 16, 2004 QuoteAfter all everyone in the class wants to jump, don't they? No. Some want to look interesting at parties. Some want to feel good about themselves. Some only want to descend under an open canopy (yeah, I know. we all want that but usually we start with a closed container and that is the part a lot of first timers would like to skip) Once I ended up with a guy who didn't want to jump but was with a girl who wanted to and would have rather died then... At hook-up time he decided she wasn't worth dying for. So there and then he told me that he didn't want to jump... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #27 December 16, 2004 Listen up turkeys..... Unnecessary bullshit???.... Hows this for one example...I watched with some disbelief a senior BPA Instructor go into incredible detail about workings of the 3 ring circus to a group of first jump students...... What was even worse was that he didn't even have a rig to show them (he'd forgotten to bring a rig to training, believe it or not!!!) What you had was a very worried and confused group of students.....hell, even I was confused and I'm a rigger..... Students DON'T need to know anything about how the cutaway system works.....they KNOW it does....because I say so...they believe me.... PLF's - unnecessary bullshit..... I'll take into account that you and bch7773 are real experts when it comes to training students and the place of PLF's. PLF's are simple to train and learn....but it does take hours of repetition...back left, back right, front left, front right, side left, side right......and you may have heard repeated many times during the training these golden words..."KEEP YOUR FEET AND KNEES TOGETHER...... Back in 1974 I spent about 5-6 hours doing all this stuff and got it perfect, and survived about 800 roundie jumps uninjured......and I survived a few very hard landings... However......leg fractures were a common occurrence amongst student jumpers.....and if you looked around it was really rare to find any jumper who hadn't had at least one injury in their career......despite being experts on the landing mats...... This got me thinking about it all, and from observation of many landings, and questioning many injured jumpers it became apparent that the reason for the injuries was a failure to keep feet together on landing....and the common reason for that was...... "Coming in to land, trying to decide whether it was a left or right roll I had to do....the ground leapt up, I got a fright...and this momentary loss of concentration at the vital point of the landing was enough to put me off, feet came apart, and bam, I was on the deck injured"...... In other words...overloading during the critical second..... The answer was....make it simple....forget the left, right, backwards, frontwards stuff......just jam those legs together and stay like that no matter what.......you WILL walk away.....but if your feet are apart even a millimetre...you WILL get injured...we tried it in training......easy to remember, simple to train..... Instantly......the injury rate dropped by 80%....and stayed that way......I PROVED that PLF's were not necessary...on the DZ.... Don't try sarcasm on me.......what have you ever proved.....or tried to change?.... With square mains and reserves on my student gear...PLF's are not necessary and I don't train anything apart from landing into wind on at least half brakes...standups are standard..... However, during EP's for unusual landings...I still train "FEET AND KNEES TOGETHER, NO MATTER WHAT!".... Injury rates amongst my students????....ZERO!!!!! AFF IS more complex, by its very nature.....again overloading is the problem......SL students have at least 5 jumps to focus on canopy skills exclusively, whereas with AFF canopy skills are simply an add on after the FF. The student is amping after the FF, and there is no way they can focus on good canopy skills......mostly its "listen to the radio".... My SL students, by comparison are off the radio by jump #4, and by the time they have to start focussing on FF, canopy skills are a breeze, and they are confident about them.....so their FF performance is better as well. No way an AFF student can compare..... AFF inefficient???...I can train 20 SL students and jump them in a day.....how long would it take 2 instructors to train 20 AFF students and jump them?....... Be lucky to do it in a week...especially if the weather doesn't co operate..... What else would you like to try me out on????......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #28 December 17, 2004 Aggie.....I'm wit chu bro.......... Everybody else is WRONG..... (listen to the squealing.....)My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #29 December 17, 2004 QuoteAggie.....I'm wit chu bro.......... Everybody else is WRONG..... Well, I'm glad I was able to help get a healthy discussion going. Since apparently some folks still missed my point. Sure, not everyone can accomplish their license or even a successful AFF jump or even a safe AFF jump, but if there's an intrest I know if an instructor is dedicated to teaching, they can be taught how to do a tandem...it may take 5 hours to teach them how to accomplish a fun tandem (and you might wanna charge them for that time), but it can be done. It just takes dedication from the instructor. Obviously physical constrants excluded. A 400lbs 4' 11" tall women might wanna walk to Subway for sandwiches for a couple of years before she could go...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spike 0 #30 December 17, 2004 Indeed, and my thanks go to you and everyone else who has contributed so far. But I was hoping to get some opinions on when and how instructors decide a student isn't up to making a jump, be it AFF/SL/Tandem or any other variant, rather than turning it into an AFF v S/L discussion. In summary it seems to me that most instructors make the decision on the following criteria. Physical capability Mental capability, and by this I mean :- Ability to recognise EP situations Proficiency to demonstrate correctly executed EPs during ground school And then other stuff like :- Demonstrating poor body form (dearching in AFF and poor exit practice in S/L) Bad attitude during ground school Lack of attention during class Reputation Second opinions from another instructor And lastly the difficult one:- Gut feelings Anyone care to add or debate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverjerry 0 #31 December 17, 2004 hi everybody, as an instructor (i am not going to beat my drum) i have done aff tandem and S/L AND i KNOW I AM GOOD AND I KNOW I AM GOOD ENOUGH TO KEEP LEARNING but i have to disagree with obelixtim not just in the tone of his message calling instructors crap if the bin a student is very impolite and unprofessional. i have yet to give up on an aff student they all complete the course and keep jumping, S/L does not do that. the retention rate is less than one percent, an instructors first and foremost responsibility is to the safety and security of his student if the instructor is not 100 percent confident that the student can perform then spend more time with the student but there comes a point were the instructor runs out of time. another factor is comfort maybe the student is not comfortable with the instructor. as for PLFS AFF v S/L v TANDEM PROGRESSION, that’s a new forum to debate, they all work they all have advantages and disadvantages the method you use is up to you, if it works for you as the instructor then it’s the right way for you as the instructor. offer advice to improve offer criticism to construct offer sarcasm at your own risk if plfs work for you teach it, (i have no opinion either way, i teach it 5 mins or i leave it out 5 mins extra time on feet together flare and land) and yes i have binned a student (to big, not getting it or just not getting me but i dont have ego and will offer another instructor the job) blue skieslife is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverjerry 0 #32 December 17, 2004 QuoteIndeed, and my thanks go to you and everyone else who has contributed so far. But I was hoping to get some opinions on when and how instructors decide a student isn't up to making a jump, be it AFF/SL/Tandem or any other variant, rather than turning it into an AFF v S/L discussion. In summary it seems to me that most instructors make the decision on the following criteria. Physical capability Mental capability, and by this I mean :- Ability to recognise EP situations Proficiency to demonstrate correctly executed EPs during ground school And then other stuff like :- Demonstrating poor body form (dearching in AFF and poor exit practice in S/L) Bad attitude during ground school Lack of attention during class Reputation Second opinions from another instructor And lastly the difficult one:- Gut feelings Anyone care to add or debate? i think you nailed it we as instructors must adapt our training to suit our students needs we must be able to read the student to make sure they are taking in the knowledge and if you like are bonding with use. if not step back and find another way to teach if time permits if that does not work then and if they are not going to be safe in the air suggest to them they need to consider they,r opptions more ground school one on one or well TAKE UP GOLF no try a tandem aff or S/L course hope this helps blue skies.life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #33 December 17, 2004 I agree with obeltixtim. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fab 0 #34 December 17, 2004 "I'll take into account that you and bch7773 are real experts when it comes to training students and the place of PLF's". Read my post again a bit more carefull this time please. I just asked some questions and did not attack you in any way. No..I'm not if you were referring to me and bch7773. Actually I didn't get an in-depth course how to do a PLF as well..I just was told keep your feet together/bend your knees and just fall down..don't break your fall with your arms...Same stuff you tell your students appearantly.. Of course AFF is ineffecient for the instructor who wants to train as many students as possible. I misunderstood. I thought you meant AFF is inefficient for the student so he/she would be better off with SL and I don't agree with that. I look through the eyes of a student..not an instructor. I forgot most DZ use radios for students. Never used a radio though through AFF. My DZ doesn't use radios. Maybe that has something to do with SL'ers being better canopy-pilots. "and there is no way they can focus on good canopy skills......mostly its "listen to the radio".... " If you take the radio away they have to fly and make decisions for themselves. _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #35 December 18, 2004 Sometimes we need to reexamine our goals as instructors. Not everyone is going to become a skydiver. Most first jump students are going to do one jump and go away happy. While we certainly want to encourage people to succeed in the course they have selected and hopefully to continue in the sport, our primary goal is for the student to land safely and have a good time. If that means offering them a tandem (and perhaps 'offering' them a tandem more strenuously) then that is what we should do. Some people are just not going to take care of themselves in an emergency. I you have satisfied yourself that your student fits that description and you cannot remedy it, you have not failed. How you fail is by putting them out anyway because the gear 'damn near always works.' I binned a student from an IAD course last summer only to find out on the way up for the tandem that she didn't want to go in the first place, but was being bullied by her husband. The times I do feel I have failed the student are when they refuse to jump. This can only happen if I am not paying enough attention to them on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #36 December 18, 2004 Thank you.......my first objective is to allow as many people as possible enjoy a parachute jump as safely as possible.... My second objective is to turn them into expert skydivers... I've actually done a lot of that.... "Binning" them gets right up my nose...... If I have to do that....I think I've fucked up...... Its a challenge that I welcome...... Thank you Aggie ....I'd like to share a beer and discuss all these other "experts"..... I suspect we'll be laughing a lot..... Fuckwits........My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #37 December 18, 2004 QuoteThank you Aggie ....I'd like to share a beer and discuss all these other "experts"..... I suspect we'll be laughing a lot..... Fuckwits........ Always the postive one. Still pounding your chest? You can run your school the way you want to, while we will operate under guidelines to promote safety and fun. Do you have a problem with other AFFI's opinions? Several "experts" have read your posts and laughed, many with 4 times the number of jumps that you have. As far as being fuckwits, you should look in the mirror. Get a life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #38 December 18, 2004 obelixtim and shark, Be careful with the profanity and personal attacks. Both those activities can get you banned from this forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverjerry 0 #39 December 19, 2004 yep anyway to digress a little how do other instructors rain back over eager students? eg no you cant jump my firebolt 101 cos you only have 10 jumps, or no you cant jump with your friend cos you both have only 10 jumkps! ideaslife is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #40 December 19, 2004 Heh heh heh....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
