dropzonefool 0 #1 December 31, 2004 The reason I'm asking is on page 55 of the January 05 issue of Parachutist. I took the coach course and understand what they mean by positive vs. negative But as long as I can remember T-I's have always told the student not to grab. I am interested in how you fell about this, and experiences you have had with "grabbers" Thanks for taking part in this poll Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites djmarvin 2 #2 December 31, 2004 about 6-700 tandems only one student grabbed me at all and I never tell them not to grab me. Just my personal choice. DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #3 December 31, 2004 I nicely mention not to grab my hands as I need them to pull the string. With close to 3000 tandems I have never had anyone grab my hands and be able to hold them. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #4 December 31, 2004 Sure, they mean well with the "positive-negative" thing, but you can't apply that to 100% of the stuff you need to teach. Occasionally you have to tell some one "don't do . . . " I tell them not to grab my hands 'cause then I can't open the chute. Don't have to be gory about it. Had one lady out of 850 tandems grab one hand briefly. I didn't let her hang on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #5 December 31, 2004 I teach them, "If you want me to open the parachute today remember to leave my hands free at all times." My jump run review is, "Remember, blah, blah, blah,.. and leave my hands free at all times. Lets go have some fun." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #6 December 31, 2004 Also, learn how to get your hands free if they do grab them. Have someone stand in front of you and let them grab your hands, roll your arms towards their thumbs to get free. It is a very easy and fast technique that all TI's should know how to do. I always told the student not to grab me, "since if you are hanging onto to me, who is gonna pull the ripcord?" Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JJohnson 0 #7 December 31, 2004 During our training time together, I will stand behind the student and have them grab my hands....then ask them if they should do this.....who is pulling the ripcord? When the light bulb comes on you can ask them what they should never do.....they all come up with "don't grab your hands" pretty quickly.JJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #8 December 31, 2004 QuoteBut as long as I can remember T-I's have always told the student not to grab. I am interested in how you fell about this, and experiences you have had with "grabbers" Thanks for taking part in this poll I tell them they need to only know two three things: 1. Don't touch my hands...If you do I can't operate the system, and I will do everything I can to make them let go of me. 2. Arching really hard for 10 seconds helps us both have a more fun time. 3. When we get to the door if you don't want to go, don't say "No". "No', sounds like "Go" and I will just think you are really excited I have never had anyone grab my hands...but then I don't put my hands where they can grab them. This is one reason I lik eVector Tandems since the main can be deployed from either hand."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #9 December 31, 2004 I have had several students grab my arms, it used to be really scary, now it is just funny. The scariest was when a tiny (read less than 100 pounds), 13 year old girl grabbed my left thumb, just before pull time. Remember that this incident occurred on a Vector I tandem - with only one drogue release on the left side - long before Cypres was invented!!! Now I prefer to phrase ground school in positive terms "Leave my fingers free." Then I use wiggly fingers as a "relax" signal, The occasional student still grabs my hand, but now they only grab it during line stretch, because I like to hold my left/camera hand at belly level to video line stretch and their first comments after opening. "May I have my hand back?" Embarasses them and they drop it like a hot potato. They are not even conscious of what they are holding. Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peek 21 #10 December 31, 2004 "Safety Position" = "Act Like a Passive Passenger/Cheat the Person Out of Learning to be a Skydiving Student Position"!!! As I have already read from the comments posted so far, hand grabbing is seldom done by students, and even when it is, it is not a big deal. I recall when Tandem jumping was fairly new hearing some stories about how some body builder student got a death grip on the Instructor's arm and how it was scary, blah, blah. I'm wondering now if it was some skydiving urban myth that got passed around by Tandem Instructors when so few people were Tandem Instructors that they thought they were Skygods. Wouldn't surprise me. What do you teach a Static Line/IAD student to do on exit? What do you teach an AFF student to do on exit? Then teach your Tandem students the same! I agree that "positive" teaching beats the hell out of "negative" teaching. So an arch is not positive? P.S. Don't think everything you read in the SIM, the IRM, or Parachutist is the gospel. The sport is depending on you to innovate. Carefully developed new techniques are good for the sport. (need I now say ?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #11 December 31, 2004 Quote about 6-700 tandems only one student grabbed me at all and I never tell them not to grab me. Just my personal choice. I've got about 500 tandems, I don't tell my students don't (how's that for grammer?) and I've not had a student grab my hands. I'm sure it'll happen, but I do my best to keep my hands out of their reach and teach them where to have their hands and tell them those two positions are the only place they can have their hands (on the harness or in the proper RW position).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #12 December 31, 2004 I train tandems to have a good succesful skydive. Part of their successful skydive is having an open parachute to land under. "The odds are higher that you will have an open parachute over your head if my hands are free. Don't grab my hands. I have other plans tonight.I haven't had a tandem grab my hands but some have not wanted to let go of the plane before we exit. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #13 January 1, 2005 QuoteAs I have already read from the comments posted so far, hand grabbing is seldom done by students, and even when it is, it is not a big deal. There have been two fatalities attributed to student grabbing instructor's arms and another two suspected of it. I don't think it is something to be ignored. I have had students grab on a few times, usually during opening shock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #14 January 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteAs I have already read from the comments posted so far, hand grabbing is seldom done by students, and even when it is, it is not a big deal. There have been two fatalities attributed to student grabbing instructor's arms and another two suspected of it. I don't think it is something to be ignored. I have had students grab on a few times, usually during opening shock. Do you know when and where for the fatalities and for the two almost? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimoke 0 #15 January 1, 2005 I cover it in my briefing not to touch my hands because it does happen. I also let them know that I can touch their hands for correct arm/hand position. I let them know I need to operate the parachute. I never ever talk about (us) going in, or any thing negative like that. bill booth lets the student know about that in the video. I do let them know that if they do grab my hand they will experience an unpleasant sensation from my free hand. jokingly serious, they all get my drift. for the students who have attempted to grab my hands, it is a simple twisting manuvere to free them. the real danger is if they got a grip on your elbow with both of their hands over their shoulder. I am also glad sigmas release from both sides. tandems are not just another skydive. stay safe, JimokeThe ground always, remembers where you are! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bclark 0 #16 January 2, 2005 I have had a few tandems students grab my hands. It has never been an iron death grip, and has always been easy for me to shake free. It usually occurs during opening shock. I have also had a student reach underneath and grab the bottom of both legs during opening shock. A bigger concern for me is the students who like to grab the risers with the shoulder snaps on them, which are uncomfortably close to my handles. I like to tell them to grab their harness below their shoulders if they feel they need to grab anything. BUT, in direct reply to the question, yes, I do tell them not to grab my hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #17 January 2, 2005 I tell them not to grab my hands or I'll chew off their ears, since apparently they have no use for them... Worked thus far... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #18 January 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteAs I have already read from the comments posted so far, hand grabbing is seldom done by students, and even when it is, it is not a big deal. There have been two fatalities attributed to student grabbing instructor's arms and another two suspected of it. I don't think it is something to be ignored. I have had students grab on a few times, usually during opening shock. I have done a search of Skydiving Fatalities data base, the one on DZ.com and googled it. But have not been abel to find and tandem fatalities attributed to a student grabbing the tandem pilot anywhere. Could you share this information with us? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #19 January 2, 2005 QuoteI have done a search of Skydiving Fatalities data base, the one on DZ.com and googled it. Meanwhile I have been searching my memory and the only thing I can come up with is a large DZ (Kapowsin?) where within days (?) two tandemfatallities occurred. One of them was probably(?) the passenger - while already under canopy - grabbing the cutaway handle while trying to grab a steering toggle (?)... Then again, this maybe another tandemmasters 'urban myth' but I always tell them: "After the opening I start talking to you again and WILL SHOW YOU the toggles in front of your face and tell you to grab them..." I DO remember an exitshot from a buddy of mine, years and years ago, where you could see the passenger grabbing behind her back with both hands against the sides of the tandemrig. AFAIK she could not hold on to the drogue bridle... Occasionally I get people that hook my ankles with their feet and on of them last year "sort of" leg-locked my leg with both of her legs... (Yes, tight side-straps, I know... ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 January 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI have done a search of Skydiving Fatalities data base, the one on DZ.com and googled it. Meanwhile I have been searching my memory and the only thing I can come up with is a large DZ (Kapowsin?) where within days (?) two tandemfatallities occurred. One of them was probably(?) the passenger - while already under canopy - grabbing the cutaway handle while trying to grab a steering toggle (?)... Then again, this maybe another tandemmasters 'urban myth' but I always tell them: "After the opening I start talking to you again and WILL SHOW YOU the toggles in front of your face and tell you to grab them..." I DO remember an exitshot from a buddy of mine, years and years ago, where you could see the passenger grabbing behind her back with both hands against the sides of the tandemrig. AFAIK she could not hold on to the drogue bridle... Occasionally I get people that hook my ankles with their feet and on of them last year "sort of" leg-locked my leg with both of her legs... (Yes, tight side-straps, I know... ) Thanks for the information. I hadn't even thought about the passenger pulling the cutaway handle. I think the fatalities Andrewwhyte referred are "urban myth" as you say. I can't find anything on them and no one I have asked have heard of them. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tandemphil 0 #21 January 2, 2005 I agree with brian on this one. I've had my hands grabbed afew times but have always gotten them free pretty easily. I hate it when students get thier hands anywhere near the emergency handles. I tell them that if they want to hold on to something, hold on to the harness like you did when we left the plane. to do is to be to be is to do do be do be do Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #22 January 2, 2005 There was a tandem fatality caused by the student reachig back and pulling the cutaway handle. It is a situation that needs to be avoided. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,590 #23 January 2, 2005 Quote I have done a search of Skydiving Fatalities data base, the one on DZ.com and googled it. But have not been abel to find and tandem fatalities attributed to a student grabbing the tandem pilot anywhere. Could you share this information with us? Sparky Tandem Vector Manual -> Tandem Fatality Reports: #6 - Current Tandem Instructor 1800 jumps total - 650 tandem jumps. Pair exited Cessna 206 at 8,500'. Normal drogue fall to 4,000'. Tandem instructor followed habit of showing the passenger his wrist mounted altimeter at 4,000'. Passenger apparently grabbed Tandem Master's arms. Tandem Master got free and pulled reserve at treetop level. Drogue release handle was still in pocket."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bclark 0 #24 January 3, 2005 I may be wrong, but as I recall from memory the two fatalities in 2 days in Kapowsin were due to a student pulling the cutaway handle at a low altitude and a dust devil. Can anyone confirm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #25 January 3, 2005 http://www.relativeworkshop.com/taninfo_fatalities.html #6 see post above, and #23. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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djmarvin 2 #2 December 31, 2004 about 6-700 tandems only one student grabbed me at all and I never tell them not to grab me. Just my personal choice. DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #3 December 31, 2004 I nicely mention not to grab my hands as I need them to pull the string. With close to 3000 tandems I have never had anyone grab my hands and be able to hold them. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #4 December 31, 2004 Sure, they mean well with the "positive-negative" thing, but you can't apply that to 100% of the stuff you need to teach. Occasionally you have to tell some one "don't do . . . " I tell them not to grab my hands 'cause then I can't open the chute. Don't have to be gory about it. Had one lady out of 850 tandems grab one hand briefly. I didn't let her hang on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #5 December 31, 2004 I teach them, "If you want me to open the parachute today remember to leave my hands free at all times." My jump run review is, "Remember, blah, blah, blah,.. and leave my hands free at all times. Lets go have some fun." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #6 December 31, 2004 Also, learn how to get your hands free if they do grab them. Have someone stand in front of you and let them grab your hands, roll your arms towards their thumbs to get free. It is a very easy and fast technique that all TI's should know how to do. I always told the student not to grab me, "since if you are hanging onto to me, who is gonna pull the ripcord?" Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #7 December 31, 2004 During our training time together, I will stand behind the student and have them grab my hands....then ask them if they should do this.....who is pulling the ripcord? When the light bulb comes on you can ask them what they should never do.....they all come up with "don't grab your hands" pretty quickly.JJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #8 December 31, 2004 QuoteBut as long as I can remember T-I's have always told the student not to grab. I am interested in how you fell about this, and experiences you have had with "grabbers" Thanks for taking part in this poll I tell them they need to only know two three things: 1. Don't touch my hands...If you do I can't operate the system, and I will do everything I can to make them let go of me. 2. Arching really hard for 10 seconds helps us both have a more fun time. 3. When we get to the door if you don't want to go, don't say "No". "No', sounds like "Go" and I will just think you are really excited I have never had anyone grab my hands...but then I don't put my hands where they can grab them. This is one reason I lik eVector Tandems since the main can be deployed from either hand."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #9 December 31, 2004 I have had several students grab my arms, it used to be really scary, now it is just funny. The scariest was when a tiny (read less than 100 pounds), 13 year old girl grabbed my left thumb, just before pull time. Remember that this incident occurred on a Vector I tandem - with only one drogue release on the left side - long before Cypres was invented!!! Now I prefer to phrase ground school in positive terms "Leave my fingers free." Then I use wiggly fingers as a "relax" signal, The occasional student still grabs my hand, but now they only grab it during line stretch, because I like to hold my left/camera hand at belly level to video line stretch and their first comments after opening. "May I have my hand back?" Embarasses them and they drop it like a hot potato. They are not even conscious of what they are holding. Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 21 #10 December 31, 2004 "Safety Position" = "Act Like a Passive Passenger/Cheat the Person Out of Learning to be a Skydiving Student Position"!!! As I have already read from the comments posted so far, hand grabbing is seldom done by students, and even when it is, it is not a big deal. I recall when Tandem jumping was fairly new hearing some stories about how some body builder student got a death grip on the Instructor's arm and how it was scary, blah, blah. I'm wondering now if it was some skydiving urban myth that got passed around by Tandem Instructors when so few people were Tandem Instructors that they thought they were Skygods. Wouldn't surprise me. What do you teach a Static Line/IAD student to do on exit? What do you teach an AFF student to do on exit? Then teach your Tandem students the same! I agree that "positive" teaching beats the hell out of "negative" teaching. So an arch is not positive? P.S. Don't think everything you read in the SIM, the IRM, or Parachutist is the gospel. The sport is depending on you to innovate. Carefully developed new techniques are good for the sport. (need I now say ?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 December 31, 2004 Quote about 6-700 tandems only one student grabbed me at all and I never tell them not to grab me. Just my personal choice. I've got about 500 tandems, I don't tell my students don't (how's that for grammer?) and I've not had a student grab my hands. I'm sure it'll happen, but I do my best to keep my hands out of their reach and teach them where to have their hands and tell them those two positions are the only place they can have their hands (on the harness or in the proper RW position).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #12 December 31, 2004 I train tandems to have a good succesful skydive. Part of their successful skydive is having an open parachute to land under. "The odds are higher that you will have an open parachute over your head if my hands are free. Don't grab my hands. I have other plans tonight.I haven't had a tandem grab my hands but some have not wanted to let go of the plane before we exit. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #13 January 1, 2005 QuoteAs I have already read from the comments posted so far, hand grabbing is seldom done by students, and even when it is, it is not a big deal. There have been two fatalities attributed to student grabbing instructor's arms and another two suspected of it. I don't think it is something to be ignored. I have had students grab on a few times, usually during opening shock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #14 January 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteAs I have already read from the comments posted so far, hand grabbing is seldom done by students, and even when it is, it is not a big deal. There have been two fatalities attributed to student grabbing instructor's arms and another two suspected of it. I don't think it is something to be ignored. I have had students grab on a few times, usually during opening shock. Do you know when and where for the fatalities and for the two almost? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimoke 0 #15 January 1, 2005 I cover it in my briefing not to touch my hands because it does happen. I also let them know that I can touch their hands for correct arm/hand position. I let them know I need to operate the parachute. I never ever talk about (us) going in, or any thing negative like that. bill booth lets the student know about that in the video. I do let them know that if they do grab my hand they will experience an unpleasant sensation from my free hand. jokingly serious, they all get my drift. for the students who have attempted to grab my hands, it is a simple twisting manuvere to free them. the real danger is if they got a grip on your elbow with both of their hands over their shoulder. I am also glad sigmas release from both sides. tandems are not just another skydive. stay safe, JimokeThe ground always, remembers where you are! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #16 January 2, 2005 I have had a few tandems students grab my hands. It has never been an iron death grip, and has always been easy for me to shake free. It usually occurs during opening shock. I have also had a student reach underneath and grab the bottom of both legs during opening shock. A bigger concern for me is the students who like to grab the risers with the shoulder snaps on them, which are uncomfortably close to my handles. I like to tell them to grab their harness below their shoulders if they feel they need to grab anything. BUT, in direct reply to the question, yes, I do tell them not to grab my hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #17 January 2, 2005 I tell them not to grab my hands or I'll chew off their ears, since apparently they have no use for them... Worked thus far... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #18 January 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteAs I have already read from the comments posted so far, hand grabbing is seldom done by students, and even when it is, it is not a big deal. There have been two fatalities attributed to student grabbing instructor's arms and another two suspected of it. I don't think it is something to be ignored. I have had students grab on a few times, usually during opening shock. I have done a search of Skydiving Fatalities data base, the one on DZ.com and googled it. But have not been abel to find and tandem fatalities attributed to a student grabbing the tandem pilot anywhere. Could you share this information with us? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #19 January 2, 2005 QuoteI have done a search of Skydiving Fatalities data base, the one on DZ.com and googled it. Meanwhile I have been searching my memory and the only thing I can come up with is a large DZ (Kapowsin?) where within days (?) two tandemfatallities occurred. One of them was probably(?) the passenger - while already under canopy - grabbing the cutaway handle while trying to grab a steering toggle (?)... Then again, this maybe another tandemmasters 'urban myth' but I always tell them: "After the opening I start talking to you again and WILL SHOW YOU the toggles in front of your face and tell you to grab them..." I DO remember an exitshot from a buddy of mine, years and years ago, where you could see the passenger grabbing behind her back with both hands against the sides of the tandemrig. AFAIK she could not hold on to the drogue bridle... Occasionally I get people that hook my ankles with their feet and on of them last year "sort of" leg-locked my leg with both of her legs... (Yes, tight side-straps, I know... ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #20 January 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI have done a search of Skydiving Fatalities data base, the one on DZ.com and googled it. Meanwhile I have been searching my memory and the only thing I can come up with is a large DZ (Kapowsin?) where within days (?) two tandemfatallities occurred. One of them was probably(?) the passenger - while already under canopy - grabbing the cutaway handle while trying to grab a steering toggle (?)... Then again, this maybe another tandemmasters 'urban myth' but I always tell them: "After the opening I start talking to you again and WILL SHOW YOU the toggles in front of your face and tell you to grab them..." I DO remember an exitshot from a buddy of mine, years and years ago, where you could see the passenger grabbing behind her back with both hands against the sides of the tandemrig. AFAIK she could not hold on to the drogue bridle... Occasionally I get people that hook my ankles with their feet and on of them last year "sort of" leg-locked my leg with both of her legs... (Yes, tight side-straps, I know... ) Thanks for the information. I hadn't even thought about the passenger pulling the cutaway handle. I think the fatalities Andrewwhyte referred are "urban myth" as you say. I can't find anything on them and no one I have asked have heard of them. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tandemphil 0 #21 January 2, 2005 I agree with brian on this one. I've had my hands grabbed afew times but have always gotten them free pretty easily. I hate it when students get thier hands anywhere near the emergency handles. I tell them that if they want to hold on to something, hold on to the harness like you did when we left the plane. to do is to be to be is to do do be do be do Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #22 January 2, 2005 There was a tandem fatality caused by the student reachig back and pulling the cutaway handle. It is a situation that needs to be avoided. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #23 January 2, 2005 Quote I have done a search of Skydiving Fatalities data base, the one on DZ.com and googled it. But have not been abel to find and tandem fatalities attributed to a student grabbing the tandem pilot anywhere. Could you share this information with us? Sparky Tandem Vector Manual -> Tandem Fatality Reports: #6 - Current Tandem Instructor 1800 jumps total - 650 tandem jumps. Pair exited Cessna 206 at 8,500'. Normal drogue fall to 4,000'. Tandem instructor followed habit of showing the passenger his wrist mounted altimeter at 4,000'. Passenger apparently grabbed Tandem Master's arms. Tandem Master got free and pulled reserve at treetop level. Drogue release handle was still in pocket."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #24 January 3, 2005 I may be wrong, but as I recall from memory the two fatalities in 2 days in Kapowsin were due to a student pulling the cutaway handle at a low altitude and a dust devil. Can anyone confirm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #25 January 3, 2005 http://www.relativeworkshop.com/taninfo_fatalities.html #6 see post above, and #23. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
