teaching tandem progression

[feuergnom 28]

coming from a small dz (austria) where it is the single method taught* i'm just curious: how many of you teach tandem progression?

comments on how you decided to do it, what your students think about it and how it is accepted by other instructors (traditional like SL or AFF or even "normal" TI's) are highly appreciated

* afaik it's also the only one doing it over here

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[bodypilot1 0]

I teach it because its a great program, and I don't have to worry about finding another AFF Instructor to jump with!



Keepin' it safe!
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Superman32 0]

As I student, really like it because it allowed me to be confortable being in the sky. The presence of the TI greatly reduces the stress level, so when it came time to make my AFF jump I was much more relaxed.

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[SCR10480 0]

We teach it (Central Oregon Sky Sports) and recommend it over S/L because we feel that landing injuries are reduced for our first jump students. Also there is much less "Exit Anxiety" for the students. I find it to be more productive in the amount of information retained, due to the fact that school is in session throughout the entire jump. S/L students sometimes forget everything once the door opens, and repeat jumps are often necessary because of this.

Just my $0.02

__________________________________________________

[skypuppy 1]

How many jumps and what do you do on them in this progression? As opposed to doing 1 tandem and going on to regular AFF program?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[AggieDave 6]

My DZ does a tandem progression. We'll let the student use any training method he wants (AFF, IAD or Tandem ISP), however, we encourage the tandem progression.

Why?

Students tend to learn faster, have much better canopy control and repeat less AFF levels having started in the tandem progession. That's just what I've noticed from watching the program at my DZ (and becoming an instructor in the program) over the past 3 years.

Overall, I'm amazed at the level of skill and training our students get by the time they get their A license. Its turning out some seriously good skydivers (even for 25-30 jumps).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydann 0]

As mentioned by other TIs in this forum, tandem progression allows me to gauge the students reaction to freefall environment, his ability to pull the ripcord, and also allows me to teach and ensure that the student understands the canopy checks, controls and landing priorities. As soon as he has completed the Cat A & B of the USPA ISP, I then proceed to get him onto the AFF program (just completed 1 student using this program in the recently concluded Thai Sky Festival boogie held in Prachuap-Thailand

uncle

Remember those who have left us
Cherish those who are still with us, and
Help those who need our help
Life is short, live it!

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

How many jumps and what do you do on them in this progression? As opposed to doing 1 tandem and going on to regular AFF program?

I think Skydann explained it good by saying,

"tandem progression allows me to gauge the students reaction to freefall environment, his ability to pull the ripcord, allows me to teach and ensure that the student understands the canopy checks, controls and landing priorities."

I'll also add.
It gives me an idea of what their body position will be like in freefall, while attached to me, so I can give them corrections during freefall to correct it.
Students seem to be more relaxed knowing they have an Instructor that close to them, knowing we are going to correct anything thats wrong, and also be able to speak to them under canopy giving them minor corrections if needed.

Please feel free to PM me if you'd like a more indepth detail of my private program.

Keepin' it safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Feeblemind 1]

Quote

Quote

How many jumps and what do you do on them in this progression? As opposed to doing 1 tandem and going on to regular AFF program?

I think Skydann explained it good by saying,

"tandem progression allows me to gauge the students reaction to freefall environment, his ability to pull the ripcord, allows me to teach and ensure that the student understands the canopy checks, controls and landing priorities."

I'll also add.
It gives me an idea of what their body position will be like in freefall, while attached to me, so I can give them corrections during freefall to correct it.
Students seem to be more relaxed knowing they have an Instructor that close to them, knowing we are going to correct anything thats wrong, and also be able to speak to them under canopy giving them minor corrections if needed.

Please feel free to PM me if you'd like a more indepth detail of my private program.

Keepin' it safe.
Ed

I took Ed's program. Being a firefighter I am kind of a safety nut and was very skeptical about sky diving.
I don't have time to type out all the positives about Ed's program, so if you need the details send me a PM with a phone number so i can call rather than develope carpal tunnel from typing.

Phil

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[livendive 8]

We offer all four common methods of training (S/L, IAD, AFF, and tandem progression). As of this year, our static line program is only for the big boys (a dual goliath rig), but the student can pick from the other three. If they're just trying to save money, they usually opt for IAD. If they've done a tandem and want to do another one or two before going solo, we make them working tandems and encourage that. If they want to jump solo and freefall on their first jump, they opt for AFF.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[feuergnom 28]

as for the technical aspect: which tandem-systems do you use? are all systems suitable for tandem-progression?

thanks to all for your answers so far

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[SCR10480 0]

as for the technical aspect: which tandem-systems do you use? are all systems suitable for tandem-progression?
__________________________________________________

We use the RWS Vector System, but they're all (Sigma, Strong, Jump Shack) pretty simular and suitable for Tandem Progression.

______________________________________________+__

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

as for the technical aspect: which tandem-systems do you use? are all systems suitable for tandem-progression?

Any system can be used.

If the system you jump doesn't have a movable student handle that actually releases the drouge to deploy the main canopy, you can rig a dumby handle for them on the harness to pull at their assigned altitude, and watch that they pull it at their assigned altitude, before you progress them to the next level of training.


Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[FreeflyGoat 0]

Any TIs here find it hard to get the student in a real good natural arch position with properly tightened side connectors?

_________________________
goat
derka jerka bukkake jihad

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

Any TIs here find it hard to get the student in a real good natural arch position with properly tightened side connectors?

To me, properly tightened laterals means the student is snug against you, not capable of moving to the side, thus allowing his/her hips to stay inline with yours while in freefall. Having the laterals overly snug is not comfortable for neither the TI or the student.
IMO, if the laterals are adjusted correctly, the TI must arch also, with the student, inorder for them to have any arch at all.

Most TI's that I have seen over the years seem to get lazy and lose any sign of an arch when they do tandems, and sometime rely on the drouge for stability.......



Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[nicknitro71 0]

I teach it and do not like it.

Call me old scholl but I like the first 5 jumps to be S/L...

Memento Audere Semper

903

[feuergnom 28]

Quote

I teach it and do not like it.

that begs for an explanation

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[NickDG 23]

I'm not a fan of tandem progression. I guess I'm not a fan of tandem in general unless there is a real practical reason for it. And a student being afraid to exit alone isn't a practical reason. Do you think the thousands of us who began jumping before tandem weren't scared?

DZOs rave about tandem progression, and students who go through it love it. Of the former I suspect it's because it's cheaper staff wise and in the latter students don’t know any better and just naturally love the way they learned, and who taught them, as long as they don’t get killed.

The real point is what kind of skydiver does tandem progression produce?

I've never bought into the idea that tandem is like dual instruction as in learning to fly an airplane. With tandem it's more like you are sitting on your flight instructor's lap. Go to any driving school, does anyone sit on their teacher's lap? AFF is more like true dual instruction than tandem is.

There is something even more insidious going on here. AFF Instructors are a big cash drain and most DZO's would do anything possible to get rid of this extra expense. For those out of the way DZ's, or the smaller ones that have trouble attracting quality AFF Instructors, I say sweeten the pot and offer more in the way of pay and perks.

I'm all for making student jumps safer for beginners, but I'm not so sure we should be making it easier. I can see the difference (in general) between the jumpers who learned on static line, the ones who learned on pure AFF, and later the ones who began with a tandem jump. We are dumbing it down too much.

I always shudder when I hear a tandem first jumper land and say, "Wow, I never could have done that by myself." I'm sad, in a way, because I know they could have done it alone if someone had just given them the chance. This is the first step in building confidence. And to those who argue tandems are less prone to injury that's true, but I'd rather see a student turn an ankle or even break a leg under a big student canopy early on rather than when they move into the world of real skydiving and cream in under something smaller. Those early bumps and bruises are what teach them respect for the ground.

Who doesn't see the correlation between making entry level skydiving "easier" and how device dependant we've become? We are actually getting to the point where pulling two handles in an emergency is believed to be beyond our ability. Sometimes I think when manufactures come up with a device that saves an extra five people a year the unintended consequence is we will lose more in the long run by further taking the jumper out of the loop.

On "private programs" of instruction, well sure, we all "tweak" AFF to fit individual teaching styles and situations. And there's nothing wrong with it and I especially don’t have a problem with very experienced Instructors who go a few steps further than that. My concern would be those who just scrap the entire AFF program and do whatever they want. When we get to the point where student instruction becomes willy-nilly across the board we are going to be royally screwed.

What's next? Tandem masters without Instructional ratings doing more besides the first jump in a tandem progression program? We are slowly but surely neutering the ability of our AFF Instructors to teach skydiving, and while it comes in the guise of ease and safety, the wolf underneath the sheep's clothing is nothing more than pure profit motive.

NickD BASE 194

[riggerrob 643]

While I agree with much of what Nick DG says, I still think that tandem is a good screening device early in the learning process.

Of all the students that say: "Wow, I could never have done that on my own.", probably 1/3 should never be allowed to exit an airplane alone. That is because tandems attract an extra 30% that are not bright, strong, smart, courageous, etc. to jump on their own.

In most tandem programs, the first jump is little more than a joy ride. And some students come back year after year to do joy rides on their birthdays, never wanting to invest the time, effort or money to progress.
However, for those students wishing to progress, tandem rapidly fades as a teaching tool.
Tandems level two and three are great for teaching altitude awareness, turns and ripcord pulls. Beyond that, you are wasting their money.
Tandem can also come in handy for screening students, some of whom are not bright enough to be allowed to exit an airplane alone.
For example, this past summer, the chief instructor asked me to do a tandem jump with a woman who had sat through the IAD first jump course the previous weekend, but turned into a ball of tears during the airplane ride. She had to land with the airplane because she was crying so hard, she could not see where she was going.
During our tandem jump, she was an emotional basket case, yelled her head off and repeatedly declined my invitations to grab the steering toggles. After landing the chief instructor politely explained why she would not be allowed to jump by herself.

The flip side of this debate is that unstable exits are my least favorite part of PFF. First freefalls always contain an "unknown" element, but if a student has already performed well on two or three tandems, then they have a pretty good chance of being relaxed, focussed, stable and altitude aware on their first freefall.

[nicknitro71 0]

Quote

that begs for an explanation

I knew Nick would come in and properly articulate it for me!

I agree with him 100%.

I see Tandems as "roller coaster" rides with very little learning opportunity no matter how hard as instructors we try to make them so.

I do understand the motives for the tandem progression but those motives have nothing to do with Student's progression in mind, they have the good old buck in mind.

I am not even a fan of the full blown AFF program.

Again, 5 S/ls or 5 IADs as the first five jumps and then up with one AFF instructor...

Memento Audere Semper

903

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

I'm all for making student jumps safer for beginners, but I'm not so sure we should be making it easier. I can see the difference (in general) between the jumpers who learned on static line, the ones who learned on pure AFF, and later the ones who began with a tandem jump. We are dumbing it down too much.

Even though I only started a little over a year ago, I've never done a tandem (went straight into SL FJC). I kind of throw out that fact with a little bit of pride. Once I decided I wanted to skydive I decided I also wanted to do it by myself. One of these days I'll probably do a tandem to help someone get their rating, but I like the fact that my first steps in the sport were made entirely on my own.

I like to think the fact that, from the very beginning, I have never been able to rely on anyone else has shaped my attitude towards the sport. That was tested on jump #6, first clear and pull, when I couldn't find the handle, tried twice, and pulled silver. The thought running through my head at the time was "You WILL NOT have a Cypres fire." And I didn't.

Just one (former) student's experience. Have no idea if it can/should be generalized.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Schoenauer 0]

We offer AFF and Tandem progression. At about the time when the USPA adopted the tandem progression, Static line instruction was an effective 50 plus year old method of instruction. Static line instruction was not viewed as a modern technique for teaching skydiving, so the Static line method, we were using at the time, was phased out never to return to our DZ.

Our Tandem progression ends with the student ready to attend a FJC after a total of three tandems and enter the AFF program with a single instructor. The tandem progression student’s first AFF jump is non release and the second is a Category D release skydives.

As for recommendations, our DZ does not recommend a method to the customer because of liability exposure if the student happens to get hurt. Even though the DZ has a well written waver to protect them in a civil case a costly court case could drain the year’s profit from the DZ.

Memento Mori

[mdrejhon 8]

The AFF type program (Progressive Freefall) at Skydive Gananoque, requires a minimum of 4 tandems -- so it could be considered a kind of a tandem progression.

I think it helped me because:
(1) The fun initial jumps (1997 and 2002) helped me get through my sensory overload and made me decide to pursue the sport later.
(2) The third and fourth jumps were tandems (in spring 2005) proved my altitude awareness which remained excellent.
(3) My deafness means I went for a 100% radioless AFF. I had to pay very close and careful attention to flaring under tandem, and help with the tandem.
(4) My first solo landing was a well timed radioless flare timed 100% on my own for a standup landing. I stressed the importance in my head, the dangers of flaring too early. The previous tandems helped me get a rough idea of the timing of the flare under a big student canopy.

I have never used a radio under canopy -- just a rotating arrow, and I have never received flare signalling -- all flare timing was solely on my own (Only 6 non-standups in my skydive career mainly scattered between jumps 60 through 75, mostly due to an accidental downwinder for one, plus brake line length changes for the others). The tandem was very important to me for the initial learning experience of the approximation of flare timing.

I am sure that tandems are not the ideal progression for many people as you suggested, however, I think it worked very well in my particular case.

[packerkevin 0]

OK, Here is my .02. At the dz where I work, We do offer tandem progression. 1 is the initial jump, 2 is a/w and ripcord pulls, 3 adds turns and forward motion, and 4 adds fall rate.Then the go thru the fjc and solo aff jumps after that. While I am not a aff-I, I do get the opportunity to watch nearly all the first jump aff videos. I have noticed that some of the tandem progression students seem more relaxed in freefall and more altitude aware. We dont just throw them out in the first 4 jumps , they actually have to pass each level. I have trained 6 students in the last 4 months, all of whom passed the aff part with flying colors.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up is optional