Hand camera in the UK

[scantech 0]

I immigrated to the UK during December last year, going back to a normal 9-5 job after 5 years of professional skydiving. I'm at the local DZ most week-ends and have been pleasantly surprised with the number of tandems I've done so far this year. What has been disappointing is the ban on hand camera. I believe hand cam has a place in tandem photography, offering a quality alternative to outside video. With 2500 tandems, 500 of which are with handcam, I believe, with the correct approach, hand camera poses minimal additional risk. I am hoping to have the current BPA ban on hand cam reviewed. I have attached a word file outlining safety issues and ways to minimize risk with hand cam. I would like to present this to the BPA as a balanced, knowledgeable account of hand cam. Any feedback will be much appreciated.
Thanks
Gordon

[diablopilot 2]

There are alot of us that diagree with you.

Some from the stand point of loosing work as videographers.

Some from the view of saftey.

Some from the thought that the quality is rarely better than an outside video.

And the odd one of us that thinks some of all of the above.


BTW, I own a handcam glove and have used it many times. All things considered, the safer option for onboard video with a tandem would be a streamlined belly mount on the student, IMO.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mojo280 0]

1) I disagree on the belly mount... more shit for snagging.
2) There is one advantage to handcam... nice shots under canopy

C

[diablopilot 2]

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I disagree on the belly mount... more shit for snagging.

The mount I have in mind has less, is farther away from "snagable stuff" than the hand mount, and if snagged, leaves the instructors hand free.

That said, this discussion is about hand mounts....sorry for the thread drift.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rhys 0]

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There is one advantage to handcam... nice shots under canopy

+ nice exit shots (facials)

+ nice opening shots (facials)

i also agree that the use of handcam only will minimise the pool of talented/experienced skydivers to take on the role as tandem masters.

however both ouside video and handcam have advantages and disadvantages over the other.

handcam doesn't capture the scale of the experience and does not capture the views as good and outside video 9.5 time out of ten does not capture the expression of the customer on exit and opening also what the customers emotions are directly after freefall, some of these comments are priceless.

around here we have spectacular scenery, it would be a shame to not have the outside shot.

i think a combination of the both of them is ideal and is offered at a few places. if the video is edited on a computer with both of these angles then oooooh baby that's the bombdiggity right there.

how many incidents have there actually been that have been caused by the presence of a hand cam? they are used all over the place in australia?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[skydiveoc 0]

I dont know of any incidents with hand cam, but it is a new concept. I am sure there will be. Hell, we're having "incidents" with Cypreses now and no one is talking about banning them.

I do know of several incidents, even fatalities involving camera men colliding with tandem pairs.

I see so many posts by aspiring camera flyers that are scary..."ive got 100 jumps and followed out my first tandem yesterday with my new camera helmet..."

The tandem master allowing that probably thinks hand cam is dangerous!

Hand cam is for the cessna dz with full time instructors who make a living skydiving, not part timers. The reason being currnecy of jumping and income. The part time guy just doesn't value the extra $30 hand cam pay like the full time guy does. He has a regular job and does tandems for enjoyment and maybe to pay for recreational jumping. Hand cam seems like an added risk to him. Full time guy looking to do 30-40 jumps a week with 40% hand cam likes the additional $400 per week pay!

Yes a GOOD outside camera guy gets a better image than handy. But, Good handy gets a better image than a mediocre or new camera flyer.

My experience also has the customer desiring to be in the plane with their friend rather than splitting up 2 loads even though outside video is better.

Definitely though, handy is not for everybody.

Just my 2 cents!

[riggerrob 643]

If a DZO asked me to work with a bumbling, newbie outside vieographer, I would rather not.
It is safer for me to do all my own - Handy-Mount - video.

[Pendejo 0]

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If a DZO asked me to work with a bumbling, newbie outside vieographer, I would rather not.

I would question why I worked at a DZ that would ask me to work with anyone that is not competent.

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It is safer for me to do all my own - Handy-Mount - video.

Ya gotta love those "I can't make a mistake" statements.... You must really be a god to feel that way.


IMO, just because it hasn't caused a problem does not mean it will not cause a problem (or at least add to a problem).

Its interesting to me to see people say it adds no safety issues when we talk regularly about how adding a camera to a skydiver that does not have someone strapped to them is a huge deal. Sounds like you really have a handle on all the issues involved.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[skydiveoc 0]

Quote

Quote

If a DZO asked me to work with a bumbling, newbie outside vieographer, I would rather not.

I would question why I worked at a DZ that would ask me to work with anyone that is not competent.

Quote

It is safer for me to do all my own - Handy-Mount - video.

Ya gotta love those "I can't make a mistake" statements.... You must really be a god to feel that way.


IMO, just because it hasn't caused a problem does not mean it will not cause a problem (or at least add to a problem).

Its interesting to me to see people say it adds no safety issues when we talk regularly about how adding a camera to a skydiver that does not have someone strapped to them is a huge deal. Sounds like you really have a handle on all the issues involved.

Uh...who is saying they cant make a mistake...Uh...who is saying it adds no safety risks?

[Pendejo 0]

Maybe I'm just having a shitty day but here is how I took what he wrote.

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It is safer for me to do all my own - Handy-Mount - video.

Almost all the tandem instructors in the world will say that "safety" is there number one priority when doing tandems, right? As a video guy we say that safety is our number one priority, right (if your not a vidiot the answer is that we vidiots do feel that way).

When we train a new video flyer (or anyone else that wants to wear a camera) we discuss all the bad shit that can happen to them because they have decided to strap a camera to them. We tell them horror stories about things getting snaged and other things getting in the way and possibly interfering with their emergency procedures.


If its true that it adds an additional risk for camera flyers to have a camera on, then how is it safer for him to do his own - Handy-mount - video?

To me this implied that he felt he couldn't make a mistake (using the logic that jumping a camera adds risk), and that having it on posed no additional safety risk to his passenger.

EDIT TO ADD: Like I said, maybe I'm just not reading it right cause I'm having a shitty day.... Or its entirely possible that I'm just being a dumbass and missing what he meant to say.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[Skypilot 0]

My handicam has never flown into me. I have never had to wait to throw the drougue because the glove was on my back. Handicam means that more skydivers can be full time professionals and do a better job at work each day! By the way . I do outside camera too. Before I went full time I did and got every rating I could. Handicam is another skill that I use as part of being a full time skydiver.

Go big!

[rhys 0]

Quote

Yes a GOOD outside camera guy gets a better image than handy. But, Good handy gets a better image than a mediocre or new camera flyer.

I beg to differ. it depends if you have good scenery or not.
we have hundreds of glacial mountans in view and an amazing blue lake so the bigger picture is important. we have two newbie camera fliers. they do an o.k to good job. the image of them coming down to the tandem pair is amazing and impossible to carture with handcam.

so an o.k. outside cam is better than a good handcam.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[riggerrob 643]

Agreed!
But I wish you luck with BPA bureaucrats.
The only way Australian handy-cammers were able to stave off the APF, was to write pre-levels before APF bureaucrats had a chance to say anything.
Hee!
Hee!
Scary when the only way to beat bureaucrats is to be more bureaucratic than them.
Hee!
Hee!

When they introduced handy-mount (in 1998) all the TIs in Perth had more than 500 tandems, so that is where they set the pre-level. The APF published a 500 tandem minimum circa 2001.
A couple of years later, DZOs were able to talk the APF into reducing the entry level to 100 tandems, based on the notion that a young TI - who did 100 tandems in his first season - was probably bright enough to handle extra equipment.

P.S. Don't tell BPA bureaucrats that I took Handy-Mount video of bunch of static-liners - at a BPA DZ - and half the students INSISTED on buying the footage.

[skypuppy 1]

Rob

Can you post a picture of your handi-cam when you're wearing it so we can see the size, shape, etc.

What cameras are best for hand-cam?

I hope I may be able to drop by Skydive Niagara when you are there.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[NSEMN8R 0]

Here's a pic of my riggerrob glove with a pc105 in it.

The 105 is good, but I think the pc109 is the best hand cam camera I've used.

http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=45959;

[Liemberg 0]

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both ouside video and handcam have advantages and disadvantages over the other.

Therefore, a regulating body should only consider the safety-aspect. Please let us not forget that already TWICE an outside videographer interfered with an opening tandem with fatal results. Apparently this is an accepted risk since there's no BPA-ban on outside camera, to my knowledge...

I do allow people around me in freefall while I'm doing tandem and so do lots of you. When things are as they should be YOU have the final saying on who you allow near you and who not.

I'm well aware of these risks, otherwise I wouldn't have a standard briefing for those aspiring to dock with the tandempassenger, come near the tandempair or shoot video of the tandem for the first time. (In case you all forgot, there's always a first time...)

I would have a problem with a regulating body that downright said NO to a piece of equipment that is widely in use elsewhere without reports about the disastrous results - mainly because they themselves probably feel that they could not cope with it, for apparently there are people that can and do cope...

Only last friday I had to take the C182 around on jump run since I simply wasn't ready with my preparations with the handcam - this almost never happens with a straight-of-the-mill tandem.
(However, recently in the Netherlands someone got stripped of his ratings for leaving the shoulder-hooks undone... afaik he wasn't wearing a handcam - grapevine tells us he deviated from his procedures since the passenger had such a strong body odor that it made him a bit nauseated and he wanted to postpone as long as he could - and then he forgot when the door slid open and everything started to move...)

People do make mistakes. People do take on responsibilities and may make mistakes.
And yes, make a series of mistakes when doing tandemskydives and you as well as your passenger can end up dead - what else is new?...

When weighting one against the other neither esthetic considerations about the quality of the video nor considerations about the pool of '(semi)-professional skydivers' should play a role.

Maybe I'm a bit too trustworthy but my gut-feeling says that only a small percentage of tandeminstructors would consider taking a handcam when they feel it might kill their passenger - with whome they share the parachute, remember?

Hey, only yesterday I refused to jump with a passenger who I felt (and saw) to be too big and too stiff and too nervous.

(my business terms and conditions say I can do that without being obliged to give an explanation. If you as a tandeminstructor jump at a DZ where that is not the case I would suggest to seek employment elsewhere - I'm pretty sure there's work to be found for a rated tandeminstructor who insists that he will have final saying and is under no obligation to discuss it with the rejected passenger...)


Is there an added risk with handcam? Definitely.
Can it be overcome with training, experience and knowledge?

Wanna bet?
The question therefore shouldn't be 'can it be done safely?' but 'Can it be done AS SAFELY AS?...'

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Rob

Can you post a picture of your handi-cam when you're wearing it so we can see the size, shape, etc.

What cameras are best for hand-cam?

I hope I may be able to drop by Skydive Niagara when you are there.

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NSEMIN8R graciously posed a photo of a Handy-Mount that I sewed for him.

Most of the smaller SONY miniDV and microMV cameras work for Handy-Mount.

I will be at Niagara Skydive Center from Halloween (Monday, 31 October) until Friday, 4 November 2005, teaching a CSPA Rigger A Course. I may be there for the weekends preceding and following, just don't know my exact travel plans yet.

[skypuppy 1]

Hey, only yesterday I refused to jump with a passenger who I felt (and saw) to be too big and too stiff and too nervous.

(my business terms and conditions say I can do that without being obliged to give an explanation. If you as a tandeminstructor jump at a DZ where that is not the case I would suggest to seek employment elsewhere - I'm pretty sure there's work to be found for a rated tandeminstructor who insists that he will have final saying and is under no obligation to discuss it with the rejected passenger...)
__________________________________________________

I would like to see this split into a different thread.

So what happens to the tandem student? Does (did) some other tandem instructor take him? If not, who breaks the news to him, and what do they say about why? If they do, do they know that one instructor refused to take him? What if you're the senior instructor around, and a junior instructor said no? Do you feel obligated to take him?

Just wondering what policies are in place?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[bob.dino 1]

The other major manufacturer is WayCool.

They make a HC Classic and HC Pro.

[riggerrob 643]

I would like to see this split into a different thread.

So what happens to the tandem student? Does (did) some other tandem instructor take him? If not, who breaks the news to him, and what do they say about why? If they do, do they know that one instructor refused to take him? What if you're the senior instructor around, and a junior instructor said no? Do you feel obligated to take him?

Just wondering what policies are in place?

[riggerrob 643]

(However, recently in the Netherlands someone got stripped of his ratings for leaving the shoulder-hooks undone... grapevine tells us he deviated from his procedures since the passenger had such a strong body odor that it made him a bit nauseated and he wanted to postpone as long as he could - and then he forgot when the door slid open and everything started to move...)

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Tell the student that there are showers in the back of the hangar.

[riggerrob 643]

(However, recently in the Netherlands someone got stripped of his ratings for leaving the shoulder-hooks undone...

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A similar incident occurred in Southern California, in the mid 1990s.
The TI got distracted by his student fumbling with goggles and a faster airplane (King Air).
I was rigging on the DZ, saw the video and talked with most of the participants.
The TI was suitably embarrassed, did a couple of jumps with the local Tandem Examiner and got his rating back.
The best thing you can do in that case, is ask the pilot for a second pass.