Hooknswoop 19 #1 October 17, 2005 Should an AFFI lose their rating if they can't catch a student? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #2 October 17, 2005 No, AFFI's are hopefully doing their best but perfection should be expected of no one. Now if they do it on a regular basis or cannot fly their slot on a non-problematic student...Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #3 October 17, 2005 Disclaimer: Not an AFFI (yet) I think it would depend on the number of times the instructor "dropped" their student. If it's a frequent occurrence, yes. If it's infrequent, no.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygirlz 0 #4 October 17, 2005 Not if it happens the first time and probably not if it happens a second time. If it happens more often, it should be considered (evaluation jumps, ....) I once had a very stressful jump in my first year, I DID get the student, but it was closed not to get him by 5000ft. I learned very very much on this jump. What I want to say: a bad instructional performance or very closed jump once in a while (once in a few hundred jumps, not every other weekend!!) will get you back to the ground. It will remind you, what is possible up there. Its probably necessary to really learn what AFF is about. To keep you focused and have a very professional and serious attitude to instructing. Blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #5 October 17, 2005 QuoteShould an AFFI lose their rating if they can't catch a student? If they can't catch a student? Or if they can't catch a student? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #6 October 17, 2005 Quote If they can't catch a student? Or if they can't catch a student? If they do not posses the ability or are not willing to catch a tumbling, panic'ed, out of control student. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #7 October 18, 2005 It seems that folks are overlooking the other side of the coin here. I've seen little students that have through some work, gotten away from AFF-I's at different DZs due to their little size/light weight and flattening/de-arching due to fear or whatever.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #8 October 18, 2005 It is the AFF instructors responsibility to know their range and to dress themselves and their student for success...trust me, a student is not "trying" to get away from their instructor, if it happens it is almost always the instructor's lack of preparation. I think it might be a combination of dumb luck and proper preparation, which includes knowing when to decline jumping with a particularly sized student, that I have never found myself in this situation during my 2000+ AFFI jumps.Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #9 October 18, 2005 QuoteIt seems that folks are overlooking the other side of the coin here. I've seen little students that have through some work, gotten away from AFF-I's at different DZs due to their little size/light weight and flattening/de-arching due to fear or whatever. Dress for success. I have worn camera wings on an AFF jump (without using the thumb loops). You have to be able to match the students fall rate. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 October 18, 2005 QuoteDress for success. I have worn camera wings on an AFF jump (without using the thumb loops). You have to be able to match the students fall rate. Obviously, I'm not an AFF-I, I was just commenting on the discussion and the singularity of the arguments, in that it seems that the discussion was trapped by everyone's paradigm of "loosing a student."--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #11 October 18, 2005 If an AFFI main side on Levels 1-3 loses control of a student without deploying them, probably. Probably a stepped disciplinary process. Lose 1, on probation for the next 100 AFF jumps, lose another during that time, lose rating or have to repeat the eval jumps with an AFFIE. On a release dive? I think that the same disciplinary process might be called for if there was video proof that the AFFI didn't even try. When I got my AFF rating, we were required to really FLY. My IE's worked us HARD. If an instructor has demonstrated their ability to catch and deploy an out-of-control student, I don't know why they would stop trying once they got the rating. Are there "easy" AFFI course directors letting instructor candidates cruise through the course? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #12 October 18, 2005 QuoteIf they do not posses the ability or are not willing to catch a tumbling, panic'ed, out of control student. If they are not willing to try - they don't need to skydive at all. NEVER GIVE UP. They should have their rating pulled. If its an ability issue, I would have to give them a second chance. Everyone has a bad day skydiving eventually. The problem is it could be a year before they have another out of control student. Now, if there are a bunch of out of control students, then whoever is teaching the first jump course needs a talking too if the AFFI and FJC instructor are not the same. J JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #13 October 18, 2005 QuoteAre there "easy" AFFI course directors letting instructor candidates cruise through the course? The course I saw, at least one candidate passed that was unable to catch the evaluator on their back. I have seen video of AFFI's not catching students which fortunately pulled. It happens. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #14 October 19, 2005 QuoteI have seen video of AFFI's not catching students which fortunately pulled. I have been that student.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #15 October 20, 2005 QuoteIf they do not posses the ability or are not willing to catch a tumbling, panic'ed, out of control student. Thats two different things. Not being able....Well that sucks, but is a far cry from not trying. Not being able, only if it is a more than once kinda problem. Not being willing? Turn your rating in."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #16 October 20, 2005 i've only got 15 jumps and only just passed my AFF on my 12th jump (level 7) i did my track, but started to spin... i span faster than i've ever span and couldn't stop. My instructor came in to stop me, i kicked him while spinning and dislocated his shoulder, he then broke his foot on landing. He didn't stop my spin, but i'm so so glad he tried to stop me... i couldn't reach my PC as my arms where being forced out with the centrafugal force... i was panicking and kept trying to find my PC... i found it at about 3,000 feet and pulled. I also got told that i should have gone stright for my reserve at that altitude he was willing to catch a spinning student, i'll never forget that... he got a bottle of his favourit drink and my heart felt thanks________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #17 October 31, 2005 I know several, currently-working AFF Instructors who outright suck and should have never got the rating in the first place. Thankfully, none of them work with me at Raeford Parachute Center School. One I know in particular will let go on exit almost everytime there is someone on the other side. Reason? He can't fly the exit off the plane and maintain HIS OWN stability, much less that of the student. This same person also lacks the ability stand up tandems, ever. If you don't think there are course directors that have "given away" ratings, you are sadly mistaken. You are also in the dark if you don't know that many, many uncurrent rated "instructors" (every discipline) get their ratings pencil whipped every year. Sadly, there are few places that will ground "current" rated individuals who don't measure up. Thankfully, I work at a place that will not hesitate to do so. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #18 November 7, 2005 Hmm, I stumbled into the instructor's forum by accident. When I did AFF years ago, on level 5 or so I got stuck in a neverending backflip for several thousand feet. I eventually said to myself, the ground is getting bigger every time you see it (green, blue, green, blue, etc), if you cannot stop this spin the next rotation, you are going to pull anyway (I could not, or thought I could not, check my alti). I managed to stop the flip and within seconds my AFFI was docked on my and screaming pull. I gladly did. On the ground I thanked him for "stopping" me. He laughed and said there was no way he could have stopped me, that he couldn't have touched me while tumbling and I did it myself. He simply came in after I stopped. This was a VERY experienced and well known skydiver/instructor/DZO. I am not a great belly flier, so I don't know the answer to this - is it possible to save someone who is tumbling out of control? If it's not possible, you obviously shouldn't punish an AFFI for failing to do the impossible.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #19 November 7, 2005 Quoteis it possible to save someone who is tumbling out of control? Yes! Those AFF-I's that do not attempt to stop an out of control spinning student, above 2000ft, should have their rating pulled.... Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #20 November 7, 2005 Quoteis it possible to save someone who is tumbling out of control? Absolutely, but the really good AFFI's grabt he student before that happens. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #21 November 8, 2005 QuoteAbsolutely, but the really good AFFI's grabt he student before that happens. In my case, I was supposed to be doing a backflip, without anyone holding onto me obviously. The flip never stopped, I lost leg awareness and left my feet on my ass. So grabbing me ahead of time was not an option.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #22 November 8, 2005 QuoteIn my case, I was supposed to be doing a backflip, without anyone holding onto me obviously. The flip never stopped, I lost leg awareness and left my feet on my ass. So grabbing me ahead of time was not an option. Then you catch the student. If you can't catch a student within a reasonable amount of altitude (and a student shouldn't be allowed to initiate an intentional back loop from too low of an altitude), they shouldn't be doing AFF, IMO. I have some video of me doing exactly that. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pararigger 0 #23 November 8, 2005 Chuck, I know who you are talking about, you should see his tandem exits. I having been the reserve side instructor with him he will indeed blow the exit and let go. Re-train and re-eval would be his best choice if he cant make it pull his rating. Have you thanked the rigger that saved your life! IAD-I, AFF-I, Coach, MFFI566 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lug 4 #24 November 8, 2005 Yes and No (Yes) If an instructor who has repeatedly lost a student for what ever the reason I feel it’s the instructors responsibility take a break and practice their weaker skills OR give up their instructor rating. (No) I have not lost a student yet but it will and when it does I hope I am on a two-instructor jump. I say this because a lot of questionable and scary stuff will happen to an individual if they’re in the sport long enough. Murphy’s LawMemento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DALAILAMA 0 #25 November 8, 2005 Sorry to some of you I am going to offend! "If the JM can"t fly, he must go bye bye!" Size and weight (in my opinion) are not factors. If the student is too light or too heavy then give up your slot to an appropriately sized instructor. Lew said it best "Dress for success", however there is no excuse for the inability to fly your slot. It ain't rocket science, but it also isn't for everyone!"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
