Bergen 0 #1 February 5, 2006 Just wondering what you are teaching new students about a downplane under student gear? One of my buds swears that a downplane under a student canopy is no big deal. Another says that it should be pretty easy to get them back together. PD doesn't distinguish between student gear and sport gear in their report. There are risks to a cutaway, and students might not have enough juice to get them back together. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,296 #2 February 5, 2006 Put your bud on a student gear downplane. Then, watch what he does. Afterwards, you may jointly decide on a good training curriculum.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
altichick 1 #3 February 5, 2006 I go with what the SIM says http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/Section4CatA.htm#1h A student needs simple clear procedures - I don't know if it's possible to get a downplane to go back together but for sure it would take more knowledge and skill than a student could be expected to have or recall in an emergency situation. I have heard students advised not to cut away if the main and reserve are entangled but I'm not sure a student, especially first time jumper would be able to tell the difference between entangled canopies in a downplane or a simple downplane. Obviously there is a risk of entaglement if you cutaway from a downplane but I would definately disagree with whoever said it's not a big deal!! Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #4 February 5, 2006 We teach our students to check if the risers are clear, then cut away the main. However we try to prevent the whole problem by telling them to make minimal control inputs during two-outs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #5 February 6, 2006 We teach in a downplane to “cut away immediately.” Even under student gear it is at best on the margin of being a survivable landing. What we teach students they will carry with them into their years as a sport jumper, so they better be taught to cutaway because on normal sport gear a downplane is a killer. As for the chances of an entanglement almost be definition with a downplane the risers are well separated. This is not the case necessarily for a side by side, however. As for getting a downplane “back together” the chances are close to nil. By definition the canopies are creating a self-sustaining situation. There is a slight chance it might happen but not something I’d bet my life on. Long story short, “downplane – cutaway immediately!”"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #6 February 6, 2006 QuoteWe teach in a downplane to “cut away immediately.” Even under student gear it is at best on the margin of being a survivable landing. ditto MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #7 February 6, 2006 >>Just wondering what you are teaching new students about a downplane under student gear? Disconnect the RSL, cutaway._________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #8 February 7, 2006 It depends a lot on the type of RSL. Racer style, cross-connector RSLs are the worst, because there is a strong chance that the RSL will try to choke off the inflated reserve. All other - single side - RSLs present a much smaller risk. There is a tiny chance that their hardware will entangle with the main suspension lines, but it is a tiny chance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #9 February 8, 2006 For an actual downplane situation, cutaway immediately. A downplane under any set of canopies is a big deal. Think about landing a PD 253, and a Navigator 260, that was pointed straight down in a nicely plowed field. It's going to hurt. Move the plowed field and put a fence or telephone pole, or other assorted rocks trees, building ... etc, in it's place. If Racers are being used in a student program, be damn sure the double RSL has been replaced with a single side RSL. Expecting someone to disconnect an RSL before cutting away is ludicrous.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kwmontreal 0 #10 February 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteWe teach in a downplane to “cut away immediately.” Even under student gear it is at best on the margin of being a survivable landing. ditto Same here ...... chop it.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JUMP SAFE! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schoenauer 0 #11 February 9, 2006 I teach cutaway. If I don’t being a USPA instructor following the USPA’s response for a down plane I see a potential legal problem if an injury takes place. There is no option other then cutaway a down plane. If this was a PC in tow we as instructors have an option, or I should say the school has the options to decide what is taught. I know a guy who broke his leg and the student broke their pelvis on a tandem down plane. They were lucky… he was lucky. It started at about 20 to 30 feet above the ground, so the size of the parachute doesn’t matter during a down plane.Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schoenauer 0 #12 February 9, 2006 Quote Rewrite found my self going on a tangent. I teach cutaway. If I don’t being a USPA instructor following the USPA’s response for a down plane I see a potential legal problem if an injury takes place. There is no option other then cutaway a down plane. If this was a PC in tow we as instructors have an option, or I should say the school has the options to decide what response is taught. I know a guy who broke his leg and the student broke their pelvis on a tandem down plane. They were lucky… he was lucky. It started at about 30 to 50 feet above the ground, so the size of the parachute doesn’t matter during a down plane.Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #13 February 10, 2006 QuoteJust wondering what you are teaching new students about a downplane under student gear? A downplane requires a prompt cutaway. If time permits (e.g. above 2500'), disconnecting the RSL first is preferable, but that part is not required. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #14 February 13, 2006 Disconnecting the RSL is mainly an issue with the cross-connector RSLs installed on Racers. All the other types of RSL have a only a tiny chance of fouling the reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #15 February 13, 2006 QuoteDisconnecting the RSL is mainly an issue with the cross-connector RSLs installed on Racers. All the other types of RSL have a only a tiny chance of fouling the reserve. I have not actually seen a Racer with one of those double-sided RSLs, but if they are as described to me I'd vehemently argue against their use on student gear. If I was convinced to train students using that gear, my RSL disconnection advice for a 2-out situation would go from "a good thing to do, if time permits" to "mandatory". Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #16 February 13, 2006 Quote It (the downplane) started at about 30 to 50 feet above the ground. Quite curious here because this is an important issue I have been pondering. They developed the downplane at 30 to 50 feet? What was the configuration before the downplane? Did either of the canopies have line twists? What were the wind conditions? Was either of the two on the tandem applying control input that might have caused the downplane? Basically I am wondering what caused the downplane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YISkyDive 0 #17 February 13, 2006 Someone very close to me had a downplane on a 288 Manata. It was a big deal. He got cutaway over the radio and lived.. had he not cutaway i dont think it would have ended well, at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #18 February 14, 2006 They developed the downplane at 30 to 50 feet? What was the configuration before the downplane? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My theory about low-altitude downplanes is that they are jumper induced. Biplanes or side-by-sides usually fly well until you start messing with steering toggles. I believe that most low-altitude downplanes are caused by jumpers stabbing toggles - to turn into the wind or flare. This time last year I landed a Manta and Tempo 250 biplane. I found that if I only did 1/8 strokes with the main toggles, the two canopies flew well together. Even a 1/4 stroke on a main steering toggle caused the two canopies to start separating. That scared me so badly that I quit that foolishness and did the bare minimum of control movements to get to the DZ. I started my last (180 degree) turn at 1200 feet over the bowl. When I arrived at 100 feet still 30 degrees off the wind line, I thought "close enough" and stopped moving my toggles. I never did flare, but slid to a halt in a mud puddle, stood up and walked away. Lesson learned: when you are flying a two-out, the fewer (and smaller) control movements the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
