flyer299 0 #1 February 14, 2006 I have just posted a video on http://www.skydivingmovies.com of a malfunction that we just had at our dropzone. Once the video is fully uplaoded I will post a direct link (unless someone beats me to it. The Name of the file is: TandemMalfunction.wmv Below is the description. Please view the video and lets open this up for discussion. I will later post some of the changes we have made at our dropzone in response to this malfunction. This was an interesting malfunction that happened at my home dropzone. I was not the TI or the Video guy, but I am posting this video with the permission of both the TI and the video guy so that other tandem masters can learn. BTW, I am also a TI at this dropzone. Gear: RWS Victor 2. Malfunction Description: On exit the housing for the secondary drogue release (one on the student side) caught on the door and was pulled OVER the drogue throw handle. When the TI threw the drogue the Drogue and the Bridle went through the loop created by the housing. In drogue fall the drogue inflated but caused the TI to freefall slightly on their side. You can see that the TI knew something was up and was searching with his hand and eye to figure out what was going on. When he released the drogue, the dBag had no where to go and just flopped around back there. The TI quickly deployed the Reserve. It sure was scary to see the Reserve and the drogue dance around together, but the reserve opened cleanly. After the reserve was open, the main began to inflate (not show in the video). The TI then chopped the main and landed with out any issues. I found it amazing watching as the TI released the drogue to see it collapse and keep on falling. Please visit DZ.com in the instructors forum for further comments on this video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyer299 0 #2 February 14, 2006 Video is at: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3419 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyer299 0 #3 February 14, 2006 Here is a picture that shows it on exit before TI throws.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
altichick 1 #4 February 14, 2006 Scary shit!! Glkad every one is ok. I'm curious why the TI didn't cutaway before pulling the reserve? Was that an intentional deviation from proceedure or a mistake? Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefalle 0 #5 February 14, 2006 I can't really tell from the photos or the video so I'll ask. Was the secondary handle misrouted to begin with. I know that they were jumping from a small aircraft but it seems like that handle was routed pretty loosely. I too would wonder what the TI didn't cut away before deploying the reserve. Again, I can't see every thing that happened during that skydive by the video but, I think it was totally a judgement call on his part, Im not questioning his decision but I would be curious to his rational. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyer299 0 #6 February 14, 2006 The TI went straight to the reserve because he knew he had a problem and could feel the dbag on his butt. He has 6,000 jumps total and prob 3,000+ Tandems. He felt that going straight to the reserve got a canopy over his head quicker. I quized him about it after the jump. I only have 1,000 jumps, and 200 or so Tandems. I belive I would have done what I was taught and pulled my handles in order. The interesting thing is that when he saw the main inflate behind him, he thought it nessiary to disconnect the RSL before cuting away. Later when I asked him, "Why?" he said it made sense at the time. He clearly understands after the fact that releasing the RSL had no effect. He said in the rush of the moment that he just wanted everything disconnected from him to get rid of it. I guess that kind of makes sense. Again, pull your handles in order would have work well in this. There was talk that he should have gone straight to the reserve without releasing the drogue. We all agreed that there was no way the TI could know exactly what was going on tho. I just wonder what the video would have looked like with a reserve and an inflated drogue playing together? Anyone have experince with that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyer299 0 #7 February 14, 2006 The housing of the secondary release handle was all the way out. Normally the TI tucks it in, but for some reason he didn't on this jump. I bet none of us TIs at this DZ leave it out again! Our rigger said he was going to stich the slot where the housing comes out a little tighter. It will allow it to come out all the way still, but will hold it in a little tighter. What do other TI's do with that housing to keep it out of the way? Please post your suggestions so we can all learn. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #8 February 15, 2006 QuotePlease post your suggestions so we can all learn Don't like to do monday morning coaching especially when the game was already won (all walked away unhurt, didn't they? 1. I'm never turning like that in the door when exiting from a C182 type; I face the rear, move backwards, 'dragging my passenger with me' and then we both move sideways to the left to position ourselves on the step. I always saw too much 'snagging potential/hipstraps becoming loose/TI not having the oversight' when exiting like in this video ('pivoting' around the doorframe) for me, this video seems to prove my point there... 2. Murphy rules supreme. Therefore: keep your housing out of the way so that it doesn't interfere with drogue deployment. Since that one (the students) is 'loose' you might even wrap it three times around your main lift web if that gets the desired result - although that might be overdoing it a bit... 3. If it is absolutely clear that the drogue is deployed, open but has caught something somewhere (indicated by pulling so hard on the right corner of the rig that the tandempair is tilted) I would go (and have gone) straight for silver, not even pulling the main since that will not deploy, can quickly turn into a horseshoe type malfunction and only complicate matters - but that's just me... YMMV The above sounds a bit harsh - but that is usually the case overhere. Kuddo's to the TI for saving the day, even if done different from my way... (Hey, did I mention the loose excess webbing on the passengers harness you see flapping in the wind at the beginning of the video?... ) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #9 February 15, 2006 QuoteGear: RWS Victor 2. The part that surprised me is that the drogue didn't have enough drag to pop the two little snaps on the auxilliary drogue release. Must have just been a bad angle for that. If it had, the problem might have become a non-issue unless the drogue release cable housing and the drogue bridle then barber-poled each other. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #10 February 15, 2006 QuoteWe all agreed that there was no way the TI could know exactly what was going on tho. Maybe no way he could have known but I shot video on one of our TI's who at least guessed correctly. He had reached through the loop when he tossed the drogue. He unclipped the student release, brought it around the drogue, and then reclipped it."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyinseivLP2 0 #11 February 16, 2006 Scary video. I hate those aux housing. If possible I always take our Sigma or a Vector II with only one drouge realease.I would think wrapping the housing around the MLW would create a hard pull or at least potential for one.I would think that the housing could be tacked in place so this won't happen, we never move the handle placement anyways. As for deploying a reserve into an inflated drouge, I would much rather do that then what happened in the video(I do understand that he didn't know what he was dealing with though) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divnswoop 0 #12 February 16, 2006 QuoteMaybe no way he could have known but I shot video on one of our TI's who at least guessed correctly. He had reached through the loop when he tossed the drogue. He unclipped the student release, brought it around the drogue, and then reclipped it. Must of had the laterals fairly loose to do something like that...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #13 February 16, 2006 QuoteI hate those aux housing Me too! QuoteI would think wrapping the housing around the MLW would create a hard pull or at least potential for one. I wasn't pulling that one to begin with, but otherwise I think you are right. Furthermore I think I talked before my time in this discussion since I jump Strong, which only collapses when the main had left the D bag. But I think I can get the drogue through the student ripcord there, when it is not in use and secured per manufacturers instructions. Just once around the main lift web seems better than what happened here. On Strongs, when you have no use for the students ripcord, you can stash it completely inside. Of course, then you cannot release the drogue with it and if your packer decides to put one releasecable through two loops, Murphy dictates that he does it with the students ripcord that you are tucking away out of reach... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyinseivLP2 0 #14 February 16, 2006 Even If you are not using it you don't want to create a hard pull. If packed incorectly you may have to pull both drouge releases to deploy the main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 28 #15 February 16, 2006 Quote*** Of course, then you cannot release the drogue with it and if your packer decides to put one releasecable through two loops, Murphy dictates that he does it with the students ripcord that you are tucking away out of reach... may i assume innocently that mr. murphy played that trick on you?The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #16 February 16, 2006 Liemburg is right. The less movement in the airplane, the less of a chance of accidentally snagging equipment. I always sit, fcing the tail of the airplane, with the student sitting between my knees, also facing the tail. After the door opens, I slide towards the instrument panel, swing my feet out and dive out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #17 February 16, 2006 Quotemay i assume innocently that mr. murphy played that trick on you? Actually, it was ME, MYSELF, I in the role of Mr. Murphy, packing a rig for a fellow tandem instructor who *as-u-med* that since it came out of the hands of the DZO himself, nothing could possibly be wrong with the rig and - in a hurry - boarded without thoroughly checking... I had somehow managed to get one cable through both loops and the other one through just one. As luck would have it, he had both ripcords at his disposal and followed procedures, ending up under the main just slightly lower... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elli 0 #18 February 17, 2006 "....but I shot video on one of our TI's who at least guessed correctly. He had reached through the loop when he tossed the drogue. He unclipped the student release, brought it around the drogue, and then reclipped it. " Do YOU have a video of THIS ONE ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflysmiley 2 #19 February 17, 2006 Quote The interesting thing is that when he saw the main inflate behind him, he thought it nessiary to disconnect the RSL before cuting away. Later when I asked him, "Why?" he said it made sense at the time. He clearly understands after the fact that releasing the RSL had no effect. Again, pull your handles in order would have work well in this. I'm not an instructor, but can you clear this statement up. Are tandem rigs different regarding the way RSL's function. On a sports rig, releasing the rsl is recommended once the reserve is out as there is less entanglement risk on cutting the main away. Is this different on a tandem? Thx-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #20 February 17, 2006 Releasing the RSL - in a two-out scenario - is important with a Racer's cross-connector style RSL, but not nearly as important with the single-sided RSLs used by the other 90% of manufacturers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflysmiley 2 #21 February 17, 2006 Okay I see. But am I right to think, it's still nice if you have time to disconnect even on a one-sided, as it makes things tidier, which is good!?-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #22 February 17, 2006 If someone wants to look through 50 hours of video to find something that looks like the TM wiping his butt then I'll be happy to give them my tapes. The point being he handled it so swiftly that there just wasn't anything spectacular about it."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #23 February 17, 2006 QuoteLiemburg is right. The less movement in the airplane, the less of a chance of accidentally snagging equipment. I always sit, fcing the tail of the airplane, with the student sitting between my knees, also facing the tail. After the door opens, I slide towards the instrument panel, swing my feet out and dive out. That’s how I exit a 182 as well, my butt and right leg is all that’s left in the airplane once we’re ready to go. I also give one last handles check while on the step, then roll off. I know it may do little to move this discussion forward, but we jump Eclipse rigs. One change that Shoobie made (from his copy of the Vector II) was to permanently attach the secondary drogue release to the main harness so it’s located on the TMs right hip, and really closely simulates where a BOC would be for the student. I have heard/seen discussion of altering Vector IIs and Strong’s to this configuration. Martin Air Capital DZExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aironscott 3 #24 February 18, 2006 Not to rain on anyone's parade but I like standing out on the step with my students out of a cessna. My right hand is on my handles throughout the climb out and exit to ensure that there are no handles being prematurely pulled. I concur that if you are not aware of your handles when you are jostling about you could be inviting the potential for problems, but if you are diligent in your handle management, the risks for potential problems can be minimized. My point? Do what you're going to do, just do it safely. Hell, I've exited Skyvans, Otters, KAs, Porters, you name it insuch a way that would make a Cessna exit look like pancakes (no pun intended). Aaron“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #25 February 18, 2006 QuoteMy right hand is on my handles throughout the climb out and exit to ensure that there are no handles being prematurely pulled. Problem @ hand wasn't a handle prematurely pulled but a students ripcord housing that got snagged, came out and formed a loop near the drogue handle and then the TI pulled the drogue through that loop... This could happen even if your right hand is on the handle when the students housing is not in some way tucked away... The solution with the students handle on the TI's right hip (and the housing permanently secured to the master's rig) seems superior IMHO for those that insist that the student should have an opportunity to pull. Housings kept in place with some waxcord can't be floating around near the drogue handle and we may safely derive Murphy's second law from the first: "If it cannot happen it will not" edit because native Dutch speakers should not skip spelling checks on English forum... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
