marks2065 0 #51 October 26, 2006 you can get about the same shot if the vidiot does a front float exit and the ti gets a good head up exit - makes hanging on not needed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenMachine 0 #52 October 27, 2006 I am with you Mark, when I fly camera I don't need to hang on to get the shot, in fact I'd rather hang onto the plane and get the "OH" face with the plane flying away in the backgroud. As a TM I would not let anyone hold onto me during exit! On the other hand, and only for arguements sake, I could safely leave a plane holding onto a tandem pair.Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laszloimage 0 #53 October 28, 2006 It's maybe not the best idea, I don't want to encourage it. BUT with the right camera guy and of course with right TM-I it works and it's fun! (I did it from both sides) I still remember DZ's with the "No Hook Turn" signs and, now we have canopy piloting as a new disciplane becouse a few ignored it... Everything can be done a smart way or a stupid way. -New TM-I + bad ass camera guy= no good -Bad ass TM-I + not soo good camara dude= still no good -Bad ass TM-I + Bad ass camera guy= It could work OK as long as they make plans including if the student does something stupid (...and they always do). "Bad ass" dosen't only mean flying skills and jump numbers, it's also being aware of all possibilities. -Laszlo- www.laszloimage.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #54 October 28, 2006 imo we need to look at the fact that we are with a student. they don't know the risks. if everyone is experienced they know the risks and it is up to them but a student can't make an educated choice and because of that we should not do things with them that are out of the norm. with students falling out of the harnesses and the TI that recently had a leg strap fall off from a sticking latch i think we all need to rethink our aproach to tandems and start to do more training with the student. this training also helps the TI by running the process though his head until i becomes second nature Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #55 October 28, 2006 I like the handles above and in front of the door. A Canadian-registered U206 had a step similar to your, but Transport Canada told them to remove it. Attaching handles for rear floaters (i.e. cameramen) is unwise for two reasons. First, it shifts the center of gravity WAAAAAAY too far aft. Secondly, it puts they WAAAAY to close to the horizontal tail, vastly increasing the chances of a tail strike. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laszloimage 0 #56 October 28, 2006 "with students falling out of the harnesses and the TI that recently had a leg strap fall off from a sticking latch i think we all need to rethink our aproach to tandems and start to do more training with the student." Yes I agree but those guys deffinetly don't belong the category I called "BAD ASS" These days way too easy to get the tandem rating. Free fly(without coaching and debriefing)=enough jump number>>>Coach course>>>Tandem course (the very next day, without actually working with students)>>>and please check the attached photos for the result. Guys like them perform same during the skydive as well. All of them have at least 500 TMs!!! Also I took these pics in the last 4-5 weeks, but obviously these TM-Is (are they really?) never paid attention what happened with students recently just becouse their harnesses were adjusted the same way. The real f*&^-ed part of it is NOBODY does anything agaist them. The idea to make a linked exit with the camera man while making a tandem skydive isn't the stupidest most dangerous thing, it all depends who's doing it. Somebody CAN somebody CAN NOT! But I deffinetly try not to promote such ideas, and trigger some "self appointed Bad Ass" guy to do something stupid who otherwise belong to the "CAN NOT" category... -Laszlo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #57 October 29, 2006 Scary pictures! 1. Did you show them to the TI's involved and explain your concerns? 2. What was their reaction? (If ratings are pulled nowadays for loose-sidestraps-making-more-interesting-freefall-video, this shows that there are more candidates with the zipper undone that should take the time to re-evaluate harness adjustment...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ast4711 0 #58 October 29, 2006 Hmm.... We are using this aircraft with the shown handles and the step since more than 10 years now and never had any of these issues. Not even with top mounted cameras. But you made me thinking.... As far as I can remember, all pics showing the rear camera floater never looked scary relating to the distance to the horizontal stabilisator. alex -- www.tandemmaster.net www.skydivegear.de Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laszloimage 0 #59 October 29, 2006 Yes I did. I also shoewd the pictures to a TM-I/E who asked the "BOSS" (DZO) to do something, but somehow the whole thing just got derailed... I showed a similar pic to the "person in charge" earlier this year at different DZ. He took action. The only problem was I asked the "peson in charge" not to go directly with the photo to the TM-I (who didn't know how to adjust the harness), rather have a TM-I meeting to discuss he problem without names. But he did... The result was the actual problem got fixed, but now I was a dick who tried to drill his co-worker. Of course I showed the photos to the instructors who're involved in these pictures. One of them dosen't really understand what's the problem, the other trying to understand, and sometimes he's doing alright and sometimes just repeats the same stupid thing. ...I could do more, I could be a "whistle blower" but then I would create enemies what I don't want. The rules and requirments should be re-tightened to obtain any instructor rating. As far as I see all these problems are coming from the new system. Enough jump number (only numbers and no check on the quality of them)>>>Coach course>>>Instructor course>>>Start to work with a very little or no supervison. ....and all these can happen in 4-5 days!!! -Laszlo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #60 October 30, 2006 seems a student harness modification/redesign would be welcomed ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #61 October 30, 2006 The harness looks like a SIGMA. One of the best out there. The Instructor needs the re-adjusting. If they put the damn thing on right it would not be a discussion.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #62 October 30, 2006 Quoteseems a student harness modification/redesign would be welcomed ' Isn't that in the works, with the inverted "Y" butt strap? I would welcome it. My first rig, a B-4 surplus harness, had a saddle strap between the two leg straps. There was no falling out of that harness! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #63 October 30, 2006 Quote These days way too easy to get the tandem rating. Free fly(without coaching and debriefing)=enough jump number>>>Coach course>>>Tandem course (the very next day, without actually working with students)>>>and please check the attached photos for the result. Guys like them perform same during the skydive as well. All of them have at least 500 TMs!!! Dude those are some scary pictures, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the current requirements for a tandem rating. The progession you described is almost exactly what I did and you won't see me flying around like that. Those pics don't show anything that more jumps or more experience coaching students would fix. It looks to me like those guys just don't give a fuck and I doubt another 500 jumps coaching aff grads will help. Maybe they should look a little closer at the person who taught them to do tandems and gave them the rating? There are some people who will suck at tandems no matter how many jumps they have, but for most of us I think 500 Freefly jumps is plenty of experience to start doing tandems. In fact I'd say most people could probably do it with less. It's just not that hard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #64 October 31, 2006 The harness is only as good as the instructor using it. I wonder how long before a tandem falls out the front because the instructor missed the friction adapter while rushing to the plane, then forgets a gear check before exit(which should be part of the procedures for any skydive). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laszloimage 0 #65 October 31, 2006 You are 1,000% right!!! The problem is nothing else but the f*&^ up adjusment. They have a chache to slide out backward, and if you noticed the students are hanging from the chest-strap by their chin! ...their neck could brake during a harder opening! -Laszlo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laszloimage 0 #66 October 31, 2006 Then I give you all my respect. Also this means you are belong to those very few exeptions who takes it seriously and have some concept of it. -Laszlo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #67 October 31, 2006 Looking at a coupleof photos the hip junction is in the arm pit of the student! As well as other misadjusted portions. The requirements to be a T-I are reasonable (I think), hard enough to not allow any one a rating but still realistically obtainable. WE need to do better at policing our selves and enforcing the rules before the FAA or some other source steps in.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #68 October 31, 2006 QuoteThe harness is only as good as the instructor using it. I wonder how long before a tandem falls out the front because the instructor missed the friction adapter while rushing to the plane, then forgets a gear check before exit(which should be part of the procedures for any skydive). I don't know, but I do know how long it is until someone falls out the back. I double check my student's harness before exit. Do you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #69 October 31, 2006 these pictures tell me that the ti is not doing his job ! safety always comes before comfort and i would rather have a student complain it hurts before almost falling out. the student shouldn't even get on the plane that with the harness that loose! i would rather error on the side of ouch ( to tight ) than error on the side of dead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #70 October 31, 2006 QuoteThe harness looks like a SIGMA. One of the best out there. The Instructor needs the re-adjusting. If they put the damn thing on right it would not be a discussion. agreed, but still a small mod could allow for even poor adjustments preference in correcting an issue: 1 - design it out of the hardware (make it idiot proof) 2 - retraining of operators (readjust the TM) 3 - separate inspections and checks 1 is fool proof, 2 isn't - basic process improvement used in industry. What's wrong with a back band on the secondary harness, or even a passive crotch loop? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #71 October 31, 2006 Quote agreed, but still a small mod could allow for even poor adjustments What's wrong with a back band on the secondary harness, or even a passive crotch loop? Exactly. Although you, I and all the other fine posters in this thread are extremely concientious with our harness adjustments, why not add the "inverted Y" strap on the back to make it idiot proof, and add safety for those passengers with less than ideal body shapes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #72 October 31, 2006 A gear check before opening the door is standard procedure for any student skydive(AFF,S/L,Tandem,Coaching). It's not a bad idea for everyone to get a check since even experienced skydivers have fallen out of the harness because they missed the friction adapter on the chest strap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #73 October 31, 2006 Those pic's are unbelievable. The belly band is up where the chest strap should be,the leg straps are what really freak me out though,and where is the backstrap. I wonder how the chest strap feels up in the students throats? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #74 October 31, 2006 We ( T-I's in general) have used "Y" straps for specific students when needed, so I see no reason not to allow T-Is to use this on all jumps if they want. But I would really prefer the T-I's adjusted the harness correctly and not have to rely on an additional strap of webbing to avoid another big negative press release! If a T-I is looking at these post and is confused on proper adjustments they need to ask around and get educated!An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laszloimage 0 #75 October 31, 2006 Exactly! The most disturbing part of it is these photos are just the very small portion of my collection of bad tandem student harness adjustments. And imagine the times when I can't even take pictures. It is sad. -Laszlo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
