Good Idea? Bad Idea?

[Ron 10]

Quote

agree with you 100%.
I have heard from a number of jumpers about this situation. All of them say that they want to see the TI rating pulled.

Question....How has the jumper responded about this? Has he admitted he screwed up and is he willing to fly right? Or is he pissed and thinks he was doing nothing wrong.

IMO that makes a big difference in the level of punishment.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerrob 643]

Jan,
The more links you post, the scarier this idiot looks.
He should be drummed of USPA for being such a bumbling, incompetent, egotistical, unprofessional ......

[riggerrob 643]

I second all of MicDon's comments.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Quote

agree with you 100%.
I have heard from a number of jumpers about this situation. All of them say that they want to see the TI rating pulled.

Question....How has the jumper responded about this? Has he admitted he screwed up and is he willing to fly right? Or is he pissed and thinks he was doing nothing wrong.

IMO that makes a big difference in the level of punishment.

I can't answer that question.

But let me ask you this. This guy has done over 100 of these 'jump off to the side' tandems in the past few months at CSC. The video of these jumps is out there on the internet for the world to see. The DZ name and TI name are attached to these videos.
Do you think he thinks he is doing anything wrong?
Do you think the DZOs think he is doing anything wrong?
Do you think the photographers think he is doing anything wrong?

This was not a one-time thing like the drogue climbers. This is a repeated behavior and was also done at CrossKeys. The ffa.jpg in my previous post came from the video on this page.
Would you trust this guy not to do the 'jump off to the side' on a no-video tandem?

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Ron 10]

Quote

Do you think he thinks he is doing anything wrong?

I don't know since I do not know how he has reacted. People push the envelope all the time and do things others consider foolish while the person doing it does not see the big deal. Knowing how he reacted is a big factor in the amount of punishment IMO. But, I have a hard time thinking that he *knew* it was dangerous and did it anyway.

Did he admit that it might be wrong and promise to stop? Or did he get pissed since he knows better than everyone else? If he admitted he was wrong and fixes it...Well I don't see why he should be severly punished. (And lets remember that Strong is doing nothing to him). But if he does not admit he was doing anything wrong....I would yank his USPA ratings if I had the power.

Quote

Would you trust this guy not to do the 'jump off to the side' on a no-video tandem?

Again, totally depends on how he reacted.

Do I think it was a good idea? or Cool? No way. But do I think he can change and stop doing it???? I don't know, since I don't know how he reacted to being told it was wrong.

I am actually happy that the USPA is doing something about it. I am really unhappy that Strong is doing nothing.

But the level of punishment, I am unsure of.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tuffyjensen 0]

Well said, but in addition to the students experience, number 1 it is about their safety. As an examiner please help to ensure proper reprimand for this TI, which is a loss of all ratings. There is no excuse for these antics by any TI at any experience level period (exception R&D by a willing and experienced jumper/TI). I can't believe any DZO would allow these kind of unsafe conditions for their clients to exist. The USPA should be pulling their group membership for not following the agreement that was signed, 1-4 The Group Member Pledge.

Quote

This Group Member Pledge represents a commitment on the part of the Group Member to provide service and conduct business within accepted ethical guidelines.

Knowingly and purposely ignoring a service bulletin of such a serious nature (http://www.strongparachutes.com/Pages/inf_Servicebulletins.htm) is not an acceptable ethical guideline.

So, the answer is BAD IDEA and STUPID!

Be Safe and Have Fun, in that order!
Tuffy

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

Do you think he thinks he is doing anything wrong?

I don't know since I do not know how he has reacted. People push the envelope all the time and do things others consider foolish while the person doing it does not see the big deal. Knowing how he reacted is a big factor in the amount of punishment IMO. But, I have a hard time thinking that he *knew* it was dangerous and did it anyway.

Pushing the envelope is great fun, however it should not include knowingly exposing *others* to additional risk, at least not without their informed consent. A first time tandem student can't give informed consent for this type of jump. If it were a Strong TI in the student harness I'd feel very differently.

Quote

Did he admit that it might be wrong and promise to stop? Or did he get pissed since he knows better than everyone else? If he admitted he was wrong and fixes it...Well I don't see why he should be severly punished. (And lets remember that Strong is doing nothing to him). But if he does not admit he was doing anything wrong....I would yank his USPA ratings if I had the power.

The key here is the risk to others. I have recommended that an examiner not give a tandem rating to a person who made a habit of hooking downwind into crowded landing areas. Did I think the person would end up hooking tandems downwind? Of course not. But he routinely demonstrated the attitude that his own fun was more important than others' safety, and I don't think that attitude has any business being strapped to the back of a tandem student. The tandem master pictured on numerous occasions in this thread clearly has the same attitude, and has demonstrated it with real live tandem students. For that reason I would at least suspend his USPA tandem rating for some substantial period of time, and revoke it if his attitude was unrepentent. He'd still have Strong Enterprises' permission to take tandems on joyrides, and apparently CSC's approval, but it wouldn't be as a USPA-rated Tandem Instructor. USPA's most important functions are to protect skydiving from regulatory intrusion and to maintain industry standards with regard to safety and training. The tandem jumps depicted could not be more at odds with those goals.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[PhreeZone 20]

In at least a few of the videos one of the DZO's is credited with being the camera flyer.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 10]

Quote

Pushing the envelope is great fun, however it should not include knowingly exposing *others* to additional risk, at least not without their informed consent

But, what if he didn't think it was wrong? That IMO makes a big difference between losing a rating and getting some other form of reprimand. And now that he knows it was wrong, takes steps to improve?

Look, I don't think he was right to do this, but if he didn't think it was "death on a stick" and when told to stop he does, then why crush him?

Quote

The key here is the risk to others.

So if he screwed up, admits he screwed up, promises not to do it again, crush him anyway?

Quote

I have recommended that an examiner not give a tandem rating to a person who made a habit of hooking downwind into crowded landing areas. Did I think the person would end up hooking tandems downwind? Of course not. But he routinely demonstrated the attitude that his own fun was more important than others' safety, and I don't think that attitude has any business being strapped to the back of a tandem student.

So you tried to punish a guy for a crime he did not commit? And even when you admit you don't even think he would do it with a tandem?!?!

I do things in my solo rig that I would NEVER even think about with a Tandem...So I should not be allowed to do Tandems either?

Quote

USPA's most important functions are to protect skydiving from regulatory intrusion and to maintain industry standards with regard to safety and training. The tandem jumps depicted could not be more at odds with those goals.

Strong is not taking any action. They set the standards for the industry in regards to that rig.

So even if he realized he was stupid, admitted it, apologized, never did it again...Ect you still want his head on a platter?

I would only want his head on a platter if he refused to see the error in his ways.

This is kinda funny, I am the guy that normally is too extreme.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

But, what if he didn't think it was wrong? That IMO makes a big difference between losing a rating and getting some other form of reprimand. And now that he knows it was wrong, takes steps to improve?

Look, I don't think he was right to do this, but if he didn't think it was "death on a stick" and when told to stop he does, then why crush him?

So if a TI says "Duh, I didn't know that was dangerous." Then you'd just let him off the hook if he promises not to do it again? That sounds like Homer Simpson saying "what they want to hear."

Come on, Ron. This guy went through a TI rating course. He was told that you need to cinch the horizontals connectors down. That has been reemphasized in the past year.

I doubt if this guy qualifies as the butter knife in the silverware drawer. But even if he did, he has no business doing tandems because he does not have a concern for the safety of the student.

What astounds me the most, is that jumpers that have been witness to this (the DZOs, photographers) have not told him to stop it. Instead, they condone it by saying "Yeah, that video looks cool."

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[catfishhunter 2]

Quote

This is kinda funny, I am the guy that normally is too extreme.

My Thoughts exactly. If god forbid something bad happened to a student this guy was with you wouldn't be saying well don't be to hard on him he might not have known it was dangerous, maybe we should ask him if he is sorry and just slap his hand..

You would be out for BLOOD Ron..So who are you and what did you do with Ron?

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Ron 10]

Quote

So if a TI says "Duh, I didn't know that was dangerous." Then you'd just let him off the hook if he promises not to do it again?

Never said "off the hook". I said, "don't crush him". You seem to want his head on a pike in your front yard.

Quote

Come on, Ron. This guy went through a TI rating course. He was told that you need to cinch the horizontals connectors down. That has been reemphasized in the past year.

And we tell students not to turn low and they do, we tell people not to downsize fast and they do, people have CYPRES fires for no reason, people have been told time and time again that when doing a hop n pop the tail on some planes may be low...But people make mistakes.

If he can admit he screwed up, he may be worth not cutting his head off.

Quote

What astounds me the most, is that jumpers that have been witness to this (the DZOs, photographers) have not told him to stop it. Instead, they condone it by saying "Yeah, that video looks cool."

And that is part of it....His S&TA's didn't stop it. So maybe he thought it was OK. Also note Strong is not doing anything....THAT amazes me.

I am not saying let him off the hook....I asked how he responded to being caught doing this.

For me, if he admits his mistake he should not be crushed. If he thinks he didn't screw up...Then crush away.

But I think attitude plays a LARGE part.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

My Thoughts exactly. If god forbid something bad happened to a student this guy was with you wouldn't be saying well don't be to hard on him he might not have known it was dangerous, maybe we should ask him if he is sorry and just slap his hand..

You would be out for BLOOD Ron..So who are you and what did you do with Ron?

I see a guy that did some stupid shit. OK, maybe he didn't realize how stupid he was. Pretty easy to understand since his DZO and two S&TA's have not tried to stop him.

If a kid acts bad....I tend to blame the parents. However, that is never an excuse to let the kid do whatever they want. If you point out that they are behaving poorly and they start to behave...What good is it to punish them for things they might not have known were wrong?

Remember, *TWO* USPA S&TA's did nothing to stop him. And the DZO promoted his antics.

Thats why I asked how he responded to being corrected....Which no one seems to think is important.

Am I the only one that thinks that a guy could get wrapped up and do stupid things and without "adult" supervision they could get out of hand?

I think he was doing some really stupid stuff...But it was ENCOURAGED by the S&TA's and the DZO.

So now that he knows it was really stupid and his S&TA's were acting stupid....Does he realize he was stupid? Or does he think we are all screwed up and he was fine?

That makes a big difference in my mind on how much he gets punished.....

Edit:
Yes, if the student died I might be out for blood...Ya know the old Ron you seem to miss

But if they guy admits he was being stupid, and changes...Well I do not see much point in crushing him.

If he still thinks it is cool now that he has been told better....Crush him.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billeisele 130]

Quote

Do you think he thinks he is doing anything wrong?

I don't know since I do not know how he has reacted.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

I see a guy that did some stupid shit. OK, maybe he didn't realize how stupid he was. Pretty easy to understand since his DZO and two S&TA's have not tried to stop him.
...
Remember, *TWO* USPA S&TA's did nothing to stop him. And the DZO promoted his antics.

Just a clarification here... The DZOs (2 of them) are were the S&TAs.

Quote

But if they guy admits he was being stupid, and changes...Well I do not see much point in crushing him.

If he still thinks it is cool now that he has been told better....Crush him.

I agree with you on these statements.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[doogie 0]

Quote

I agree with you 100%.
I have heard from a number of jumpers about this situation. All of them say that they want to see the TI rating pulled.
I have asked people to email the Executive Committee or the full board and state their views and experiences with the said jumper.
You can easily email the entire USPA BOD at
Uspabod_AT_skydivehard.com replace _AT_ with @
You won't even be considered as a 'whistle-blower'. There is already a formal complaint filed that is currently in an appeal process. The FB already knows about this situation.

I guess I'm not done commenting.....

Jan - thanks for compiling this! It was a lot of work!

So, you see one video, and its crazy, but then I've watched a dozen or more and am thoroughly disgusted. Now I have to ask this: I'm not a TM , and aside from the stuff already addressed, isn't a T1 supposed to introduce students to body position and altitude awareness? Neither are possible when these students are being absolutely smothered by the Jacko and DK freestyle routine. Are these students actually customers or just a toy to play with? Outside the overwhelming safety issues, the sad thing is these students don't know what they've missed.

Jan - your idea above is pure awesomeness. You've got my FULL support!

[Ron 10]

Quote

Just a clarification here... The DZOs (2 of them) are were the S&TAs.

What about removing the DZ from the group member program?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[BASE841 3]

Notice the floating handle in the Patricia Zoetveit video.

[koppel 4]

I don't get it......

how does that only get a 'slap on the wrist'...

Without a doubt the most stupid thing I have ever seen.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[feuergnom 29]

Quote

I am really unhappy that Strong is doing nothing.

it has been mentioned already several times that strong enterprises is doing nothing about it. can we tell (afaik no strong-rep is posting on dz.com) for shure no action has been taken? no we can't.

i am pretty shure that more than one strong-rated TI has already informed the company. i am also shure, that strong will not go public when pulling this guys license.

does this make me, as a fairly new strong-rated TI, happy? hell no f***** way!

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[doogie 0]

Quote

Quote

I am really unhappy that Strong is doing nothing.

it has been mentioned already several times that strong enterprises is doing nothing about it. can we tell (afaik no strong-rep is posting on dz.com) for shure no action has been taken? no we can't.

I'm sure something's going on behind closed doors.... Let's cut them some slack....

This has to be a very complicated situation for Strong. There is a staggering amount of evidence to go through, study, & document, the number of parties involved (including some of the videos having a Strong-rated cameraman behind them as well), potentially huge financial/legal implications for him given the two earlier fatalities and the inevitable litigation he will be facing from them, etc, etc, etc......

Ted, his staff, and his counsel have a ton of work to do to make sure they handle this the best way possible.

[MicDon 0]

This is precisely why I wanted to start the thread in the General Skydiving forum . Face it . Not alot of people come to this side of the forum (although we like to think that the general jumper give a s...t what we as instructors think) and to put pressure on Strong and the USPA we need more people to be informed about this kind of behaviour of TIs and DZO's.Maybe one of the more regular posters can talk to the moderators. Maybe move the whole thread over to that side,so it doesn't get split. One more question. How do they operate now without any S&TA's ? If they have more than two S&TAs,then all of them should have their designations removed. My opinion of course

[feuergnom 29]

Quote

Let's cut them some slack

no problem whatsoever, i'm not arguing over this point

Quote

Ted, his staff, and his counsel have a ton of work to do to make sure they handle this the best way possible.

and i bet they will handle it in the best way possible

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[tuffyjensen 0]

Quote

(including some of the videos having a Strong-rated cameraman behind them as well)

If you notice in some of the videos from one of the DZO/ TI/ S&TA/ as the Cameraman, he is directly under the tandem during deployment does not even watch for complete inflation rolls over and dumps in spot. How many vidiot/tandem incidents have to happen before some people figure it out, let alone a DZO/ TI/ S&TA. I know, but I've done it that way thousands of times and nothing has happened. It can and will!

BE SAFE AND HAVE FUN, IN THAT ORDER!!

Be Safe and Have Fun, in that order!
Tuffy

[riggerrob 643]

The key here is the risk to others. I have recommended that an examiner not give a tandem rating to a person who made a habit of hooking downwind into crowded landing areas. Did I think the person would end up hooking tandems downwind? Of course not. But he routinely demonstrated the attitude that his own fun was more important than others' safety, and I don't think that attitude has any business being strapped to the back of a tandem student.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ann awkward part of a Tandem Examiner's job is to evaluate the "maturity" for prospective tandem instructors.
That is why we set minimums at 3 years, 500 jumps, etc. but numbers are only a crude way to measure maturity.

For example: a few years back, a local (IAD) jump-master asked if he could earn a tandem rating. We already knew that he had spent time in jail for a variety of violent, lewd and vaguely sexually related convictions. The local Tandem Examiner posed a few discrete questions - to some one who worked in the criminal justice system - and decided to never issue a tandem rating to this guy, because he did not want the hassle of sexual harrassment charges laid by tandem students.