Good Idea? Bad Idea?

[bob.dino 1]

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The D10731 is probably an Aussie license

It isn't. D numbers haven't reached 10000 here.

[billvon 2,989]

>It DOES make for a better video, IMO, for the person who is going to come
>out, do one jump and never do another.

So would pulling at 1000 feet. Think of the ground rush you'd get, and it would prove to the student how safe it was. And you could probably get away with it 99 times out of 100.

Heck, so would a toggle 360 hook turn. Nothing beats the visuals on that. The question is - are those things a good tradeoff between student safety and coolness? Most tandem students don't know much about such tradeoffs; they rely on us to make that call for them. And students have died when TM's got into sidespins, and when they fell out of the passenger harness.

>Would I be doing such a thing? Hell no, because I know that I am
>nowhere near the league of skydiver that Jack-o is.

Is there a level of experience where you will be comfortable with jumping drunk? Or pulling at 1000 feet? Or hook turning with a student? Or doing intentional cutaways with them? How much skill do you need before you consider those things safe?

Sometimes instructors (any jumpers, really) reach a level of competence where they believe they have become invulnerable, or at least more immune to the problems can happen to anyone. We read about these people often in the Incidents forum. I hope you don't become one of them; we lose too many people as it is.

[rehmwa 2]

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It DOES make for a better video,

It makes horrible video - most of these dives, you can't even see the customer's face a quarter of the whole vid.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[feuergnom 28]

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The fact is USPA, PIA, RWS and Strong Ent. all came out with a "T-I's and DZ's, fix this now statement".

worth repeating

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[RichardCranium 0]

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It DOES make for a better video, IMO, for the person who is going to come out, do one jump and never do another.

This is a shameful attitude, but we expect no better from someone who jumps at Cross Keys do we?

Evidently Cross Keys is a carnival, complete with Tandem carnival rides.

People say this fellow is a great instructor. For who? Only the AFF students? What about the Tandem students? Don't they deserve more than a carney jumping around over them looking foolish on video.


Maybe Glen Bangs changed his mind about this foolishness since he worked at the Cross Keys Carnival. Maybe that is why he doesn't work there now. Have you asked him?

[Kimsdu 0]

Dear Richard Cranium, You are making alot of assumptions and making silly accusations about things you cannot back up.....
I just read YOUR profile and your NICKNAME basically says it all. Nuff said

[Allballs 0]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Now thats funny!!!

[jdfreefly 1]

You just have to love people who hide behind the anonymity of the internet and make statements like that. Way to contribute to the discussion, good job.

For those of you that want some intelligent discourse, I have this to say:

I worked alongside this TM for the 2 years I did tandems, yes, at the crosskeys carnival. He mentored me, and gave me advice and helped me be a safer tandem master.

I agree with others that have said, discipline him, and depending on his response, give him another shot.

I'd be willing to bet that those of you who want his head on a pike would have a different attitude if you were on site at the DZ and had to say it to his face. It's easy to condemn people and make grand statements over the internet. Try backing it up in real life.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Ron 10]

Fact is every organization has said this is a bad idea...From USPA to Strong...Vector has been saying this for years.

I know the TI...He is quite skilled. It is not his skills in question, but his judgement.

A tandem is for the student, not the TI. And we owe it to the student to have as safe a jump as possible for them, not to showboat our personal skills.

Any showboating should be from the student since they are the reason we are there.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

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What progression? You have a wide open forum here to explain to me what the goal is, we are trying to progress towards. I am not one that wants to be left behind.

Someone here claimed that Bill Morrissey has no problem with this?? Put it in black and white with his signature on the bottom and I will try and find myself a student to have a go at this way of flying. I have 4500 tandems plus and have been doing them since the T500 and 425 days and worked at many DZ's.I would surely have seen this being done if thousands has been done this way .Haven't seen it yet.

Good video?? I agree with the previous post. Most of the videos suck and wasn't in the interest of the student

That “cool” videos you are referring too....The ones from the previous fatalities now go by a different name...... Exhibit number 1 in civil court

MicDon - I"m on your side - my quote/reply thingy got mixed up. I was replying to the "progression" statement. The video's SUCK.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Fast 0]

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Its called progression, and yes it does make for a better video!!!

Like others have said already in this thread.. What progression? I can't even claim to be half as skilled a skydiver as this guy. I don't even know him. Though it seems from the tone in this thread that anyone willing to take a stand for the students who have no clue is risking going against a bunch of the "big" skydivers.

If the progression that you are looking for is a student getting hurt, close calls, and shotty looking video then this is on the right track. For anyone to claim that it makes for better video is nuts. A tandem student, in the long run, doens't care what a TI is capable of. People making thier first jump see it as an accomplishment. The video is to show them what they did. They are the star. I don't care who was telling me that this was the "right" way to do things, I wouldn't be happy taking another persons money to video this kind of jump. It's not at all about the student and any added value people might perceive that this adds goes way beyond the risks involved.

I can understand getting bored with tandems. I mean there have been statements that this person has done 7000+ tandem jumps. It must be hard to still have fun. That is what I see this being about. A bored skydiver who thinks its ok to screw around because no one has got hurt yet. Isn't that the way most things in this sport work out though? Once somebody dies from doing this and a dropzone closes because they were sued out of existance then maybe we will have change.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[AndyMan 7]

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Its called progression, and yes it does make for a better video!!!

If my fist video had looked like this, I think I would've gone home humiliated and embarassed, I would have refused to show my video to anyone, and probably would have never made another skydive.

I know somepeople think stuff like this is cool, but in all honesty - I just don't understand why.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[marks2065 0]

there are many dangers in this sport that a student will never know or understand. if you want to test new concepts or ideas do it on yourself or an experienced skydiver with his concent. a student should never be used for this. i know that none of the students were told that this stuff was dangerous nor would they understand if they were told. when strong gives his ok that this is safe and alowed i will accept it - until then i think the dzo and the s&ta should end it. i don't think the ti or the dzo are qualified to change or test new ideas that don't fit into the guidelines set up by strong or uspa unless they are guided by them. we have all done stupid things over the years but when relized most of us correct the problem. i hope the people involved see what is happening and quickly revert back to the propper guidelines. a few years back an issue with the drouge deploying on exit wrapping around the student or ti stopped us from doing unstable exits. i hope that we don't have an incedent before this practiced is stopped

[jdfreefly 1]

Once again, I want to make it clear, I think this behavior should stop....BUT......

You, and others, have said how terrible the video is and how you would be pissed as a student, but you are saying that after 1000 skydives and 6 years in the sport. I've never seen/heard his students complain, and what's more, I usually got the impression that his students liked their video much more than mine did with my boring stable tandems.

I AM NOT CONDONING THE ACTIVITY. Just saying that I think the angle many of you are taking, that it ruins the video, is inaccurate. What we think makes a good video and what a first time jumper thinks, are worlds apart.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[jlmiracle 7]

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I've never seen/heard his students complain

Thats because they are students and don't know better. How many other videos have these 1000+ students seen? They don't know that the video was suppose to be about them not their TM.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[loudtom 5]

Since you work there Andy did you say anything to anyone at the dz?


if my first video had looked like this, I think I would've gone home humiliated and embarassed, I would have refused to show my video to anyone, and probably would have never made another skydive.

I know somepeople think stuff like this is cool, but in all honesty - I just don't understand why.

_Am

[AndyMan 7]

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Since you work there Andy did you say anything to anyone at the dz?

I did, long before this thread came about. Both the TM and the S&TA's insisted that Strong Enterprises was aware of, and condoned that style of jumping. They were not interested in my opinion, which isn't surprising - I don't have a TM rating.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Since you work there Andy did you say anything to anyone at the dz?

I did, long before this thread came about. Both the TM and the S&TA's insisted that Strong Enterprises was aware of, and condoned that style of jumping. They were not interested in my opinion, which isn't surprising - I don't have a TM rating.

_Am

You say "Both the TM and the S&TA's..." does that mean that you only know about one TI doing this or have you seen any other TIs do this hop off to the side manuever? Some other posts would have us believe that this practice is rampant.

You say "They were not interested in my opinion" does 'They' refer to 'TM & S&TAs' or 'Strong' or both?

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[loudtom 5]

It is wrong, IMHO, to think that just cause you don't have a tandem rating that you wouldn't be worth listening to or that you didn't know what safe was.
Glad you spoke up though. Wish it woulda made a diff. Tell Craic I said hello. How is the trailer???
lt

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[jdfreefly 1]

That was exactly my point. The ultimate judge of the video is the student, and if they, with their one jump, thinks it is a great video, what we think doesn't matter, from a purely astetic point of view.

From a safety standpoint, well, that's an entirely different matter. My point, was that the angle that the videos are terrible is an invalid one, as the students do, infact, seem to love it.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[jlmiracle 7]

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That was exactly my point. The ultimate judge of the video is the student, and if they, with their one jump, thinks it is a great video, what we think doesn't matter, from a purely astetic point of view.

From a safety standpoint, well, that's an entirely different matter. My point, was that the angle that the videos are terrible is an invalid one, as the students do, infact, seem to love it.

So because they don't know better makes it okay to sell them something that is less than good and is considered horrible in the eyes of some of their peers? Please let me sell you something, pleaaaaaaaaassssssssseeeeee.

J

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[loudtom 5]

Lets have a contest. It could be fun and maybe we could rasie money for a good cause or something. I am willing to put my safe and boring video up against this any day. Same students and have dispassionate judges and let all enter who think they have a good schtick. Safety first. WE would ALL learn alot from this and maybe raise money and have some fun toooooooo!!!!
We need to have a good outcome to all of this and maybe this is the way. Any Corporate sponsers? Would be good for the tandem industry. Look like we want to make a difference when we can.
Love and Blues and No Wind Days YO'SSSS
lt

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That was exactly my point. The ultimate judge of the video is the student, and if they, with their one jump, thinks it is a great video, what we think doesn't matter, from a purely astetic point of view.

From a safety standpoint, well, that's an entirely different matter. My point, was that the angle that the videos are terrible is an invalid one, as the students do, infact, seem to love it.

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[AndyMan 7]

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You say "Both the TM and the S&TA's..." does that mean that you only know about one TI doing this or have you seen any other TIs do this hop off to the side manuever? Some other posts would have us believe that this practice is rampant.

As far as I know, only one person was doing it, but has stopped.

You say "They were not interested in my opinion" does 'They' refer to 'TM & S&TAs' or 'Strong' or both?

[Allballs 0]

Obviously no other Ti's are going to come forward and admit to doing this move now!! Not now with all this going on. However as in previous posts you can look on the web and find other TI's doing this move..If that is the dzos havent already erased them.
As far as i know most dzs have told the TI's to stop these manuevres since this all came about.
I bet though had you succeded in getting jackos ratings pulled, the mail box at USPAs headquarters would have been inundated with dvd, video footage of many TI's pulling this move.............

[loudtom 5]

Why do you post anonymously????
And I don't believe I have seen anywhere someone just wanting his rating. If he wouldn't stop after it was deemed he should, then that is what they wanted, but not to arbitrarily pull his ticket. And it seems he stopped. Deal over. Isn't that the way it should be. Are you going to post positive stuff now?
Jan is it over if he stopped? Has this all been resolved?
lt

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)