Excluding the retail price

[camamel 0]

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[base_rigger 0]

I don't like pullouts hence I don't like the Sigma release system.

Also on other systems the two main releases are fully independent while on the Sigma they are not.

A harder than usual pull on the Sigma means firing the reserve into the drouge like it happened in Japan and killed two people.

I like the skyhook thought. I dislike immensely the cheap construction of the container and the hardware used on their student harnesses.

As for the main is a good canopy but the toggle pressure is on the hard side and it's a bitch to pack.

Great reserve.

You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points

[mattaman 0]

Can you explain the harder than usual pull, fatality stuff in Japan, I'm not sure what you mean.
I've jumped them all, would love to stick with the sigma, fits well, love the student harness, handles are easy.
Maintenance on the drogue bridle can be a pain, where if goes through the disc take a hell of a beating and when the kevlar is worn out the two retaining lines are way to spooky to keep using it. I recently told our rigger when the kevlars gone, where replacing it.

Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

[teason 0]

I find the Sigma way too big for our narrow body 182. I just got 3 more Racers Tandems last winter and I can't imagine trying to climb out with anything bigger.(our pilot is 6'4" and all legs!)

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Most of my tandems are under Sigmas, but I bought a 2k3 Racer for a number of reasons:

-I liked the much-lighter weight and size of the 2k3 Racer. I am a smaller TM (five foot seven, 160 pounds)

-I liked that I could get the Racer with a main smaller than 370 square feet.

-I didn't like the fact that it was going to cost me nearly three thousand dollars more for the Sigma I originally wanted to purchase.

-I didn't like the fact that it was going to take me an entire season to get a custom Sigma due to the massive backlog of military and other orders. No cutting in line was possible, even though I was very good friends with both Mark Procos and Egon. My completely-custom-to-order (main, reserve, custom embroidered container) Racer was delivered to me in NC from Deland 14 days after I decided on my colors and sizes.

I positively love the Sigma tandem system, but I am totally happy with my Racer.

Chuck

[Mickochet 0]

Have they changed the RSL or is it still the same?

If you never fall down you aren't trying hard enough.

[A2C 0]

Have you ever seen the video or report that clean reserve diployment into the drogue?

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Quote

Have they changed the RSL or is it still the same?

The same as what? There has only been one RSL design on the 2k3 Racer. It's attached to both risers.

[Mickochet 0]

Doesn't the fact that it is attached to both risers concern you?

If you never fall down you aren't trying hard enough.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Quote

Doesn't the fact that it is attached to both risers concern you?

No. Why does it concern you if you do not jump one?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Have you ever seen the video or report that clean reserve diployment into the drogue?

What does that sentence mean?

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I didn't understand that one either.

[skydiverek 63]

Quote

Quote

Have you ever seen the video or report that clean reserve diployment into the drogue?

What does that sentence mean?

Strong did some tests in the 80's where the reserve was fired into the drogue on purpose. There was a report on that in Parachutist some 20 years ago. The test TM was (probably) wearing 3 parachutes, and had a huge bulk/load attached to his front, probably to simulate the passenger. The conclusion was that there is a VERY slim probability that the reserve will entangle with the drogue.

[feuergnom 28]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Have you ever seen the video or report that clean reserve diployment into the drogue?

What does that sentence mean?

Strong did some tests in the 80's where the reserve was fired into the drogue on purpose. There was a report on that in Parachutist some 20 years ago. The test TM was (probably) wearing 3 parachutes, and had a huge bulk/load attached to his front, probably to simulate the passenger. The conclusion was that there is a VERY slim probability that the reserve will entangle with the drogue.

and this is one of the reasons why i like strong-systems
(yeah i know, they don't look pretty and are old technique yaddayadda...)

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I have had a total with drogue in tow and my reserve had a totally clean deployment past my drogue. No issues at all.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I had a total with a drogue in tow and a vicious spin. I dumped my reserve into the drogue. The bridle got wound up in my line twists, but otherwise the deployment was fine. It scared the shit out of me when I first looked up, and I wouldn't want to make a habit out of it, but it convinced me that the two are not incompatible.

[skydiverek 63]

From Bill Booth, on the drogue topic:

"To be reasonably "stable", drogues need some sort of venting around their "equator". I tried a no-mesh drogue years ago (similar to a Vector reserve pilot chute). It orbited above me in wildly osccillating eight foot circles. It was quite a ride. The other reason all holes in our drogue are covered with mesh, is that TM's often have to dump their reserve pilot chutes past a drogue in tow, and I don't want any snag points to catch that reserve pilot chute.

It is a lot of extra work to "mesh in" all drogue openings, so we only do it because we have to. We use the toughest mesh we can find, and quite often it outlasts other parts of the drogue

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1899999#1899999

[camamel 0]

Yes a Sigma cost more than a racer , same way a Mercedes cost more than a Lada.

I have been examiner for them I know a bit about it.

How many inst out there will chose a Racer if they have choice between that and a Sigma for their next tandem jump!!!

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[teason 0]

Nice.

So Racers are like substandard Russian cars that rust and fall apart after a couple years.

Racers do have some advantages over the Sigma. Implying that it's substandard and cheap is just plain ignorant.

And for the record, the size alone would make me choose the Racer Tandem everytime.

I don't know of ANY racer owners who pine for the luxary and greatness of the Sigma.

The Sigma's ease of closing doesn't make up for the cost and massive bulk.

Do you find the Sigma more comfortable? Lighter? Stronger? Is it the ease of use? Does it fly better? is the passenger harness more secure? Do they use more expensive materials? Is it easier to move about the plane with the sigma on?

I'm not saying the sigma is a poor design, I actually like it but implying the Racer is cheap in the quality sense based on price is specious and down right insulting. Especially when there are so many TMs out there who haven't seen a Racer Tandem and might take your word for it.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[feuergnom 28]

Thanks for putting things straight!

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[skydiverek 63]

Quote

Sigma's (...) massive bulk.

Have you tried Micro Sigma, yet?

[diablopilot 2]

The Sigma eliminated 1/3rd of the malfunctions possible on the three ring style tandem systems, Racer included.

That's enough for me right there.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[base_rigger 0]

Quote

How many inst out there will chose a Racer if they have choice between that and a Sigma for their next tandem jump!!!

I'd chose a Racer any time.

You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points

[camamel 0]

I am sure that Jump Shack use as good materials as any other company on the market. But I am not sure they did enough test jump before putting there Elite on the market. Back in 98 I was a V2 rig owner and the only tandem on a small DZ. At the end of the season the DZO decide to buy 3 new Elite. His reason: he can buy 3 Elite for almost the same price of 2 V2.In the winter of 99 I took my examiner with Nancy Larivière.
Back home the instructors quickly discover:
Main's took way too long to open.
The slider had extra material so in fact it was almost twice the size of a regular one. After some talk with Jump Shack we took that off only to discover real hard opening. After one year of pain we discover that the drogue was not colapsing on bag lift up but only on canopy opening. The DZO was loosing his instructor so he decide to replace the drogue system by a V2 drogue so we finaly end up with normal opening. When you closed that system you end up with three red teflon cable. The end of those you put it inside a pouch inside the bridle. After couples jumps we end up with hard release once in a while, to realize that the bridle was so thin that in fact she was twisting as well as the three red cable inside.
Nancy told me that the reason behind that was if you end up with a drogue in tow you can cut the bridle with a hook knife. After that it was possible to see the three red cables ending up outside the rig between the main and the reserve because no one want to end up with hard release or even an impossible release. On Vector and Sigma the leg strap on the instructor harness have wider webbing but it was not the case on the Elite. Single webbing and thin padding after 200 or 300 jumps this thing was twisting so you end up sitting on a rope like leg strap. We modify that as well with extra stiff and thik padding. I don't remember exactly what happen but an instructor with his passenger end up with a down plane with both canopy open, it was not a low opening. All I remember is that the double RSL was involve. So after that they took that off as well. When you modify a tandem system with parts from an other system you end up with something realy complex for packers and instructors and something that had not been test for our customer. I am not going back 20 years ago. I didn't talk about sky hook and three ring yet.

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[teason 0]

Quote

The slider had extra material so in fact it was almost twice the size of a regular one. After some talk with Jump Shack we took that off only to discover real hard opening. After one year of pain we discover that the drogue was not colapsing on bag lift up but only on canopy opening.

That is not the Firebolt but rather the old Elite425s that you're talking about. I have three of them. The Toggle setting is all it takes to achieve a proper openning speed. I also have a couple of Firebolt Tandems that open like a dream.

Quote

The DZO was loosing his instructor so he decide to replace the drogue system by a V2 drogue so we finaly end up with normal opening. When you closed that system you end up with three red teflon cable. The end of those you put it inside a pouch inside the bridle. After couples jumps we end up with hard release once in a while, to realize that the bridle was so thin that in fact she was twisting as well as the three red cable inside.

Well that's just plain wrong. The two systems are not 100% compatable. If you start mixing and matching systems, you'll wind up with damage and malfunctions!

You can't start getting creative, modify gear and then blame it for the problems that result.

As for the leg straps, I haven't found that in 4 years of jumping the Racer Tandem. I actually have put a thinner pad on my 2k3 tandem because the wider pad pinched me.

As for the down plane, that makes no sense as a single sided RSL is more likely to cause an accidental reserve deployment.

Finally, production models have changed huge in the last few years.
Racer Tandems are 2k3 models now, not the old 2000 style. The riser covers are tucktabs that stay closed, the drogue has been redesigned as has the drogue yoke and verticle partition.
The complete system comes with a Firebolt main not the old elite 425 that you've jumped and have such a soft opening that the drogue doesn't need to half collapse on deployment (collapse on release has cause drogue in tow malfunctions). The horizontal has also been lengthened and provides even more comfort that the origional design. The reserve tray has been lengthened. The exit point for the yoke student attachments have been move inward.

Your experience of 7 years ago where some rigger started getting creative with the gear is not like the reality of the equipment to any more than a V2 tandem experience from 7 years ago would be the same as a Sigma would be today.

Just so you can see it, here is my Racer 2k3 Tandem compared to the old version. It was an older model that was upgraded (you can see the parts I replaced at the bottom). It is a clean design and functions beautifully.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.