If you can't land a tandem yourself you shoudn't be an TM.

[AggieDave 6]

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Same way a pilot can give a yoke to a passenger in flight he will never do that on take off or landing.

I'm glad you mentioned that.

Your typical tandem skydive is an introductory skydive, excluding Cat A/B tandems. Very similar to an introductory flight. You go up, you learn some basics about flight, controls, sensations and what to expect as you continue your training. I have never seen a CFI take someone up on an introductory flight and let them help fly the landing or pattern. I'm sure someone somewhere does it or has done it; however, it is not considered the normal operating procedure.

That is how I view an introductory tandem. Now, if a student is doing a Cat A or Cat B tandem, then its full hands on. They're also exiting the airplane with their arms out and in a proper neutral body position for exit. Then again, with my DZ atleast, they have typically completed an introductory skydive and have been trained on the ground for 30-45 minutes of one on one training prior to their Cat A tandem. This covers everything from neutral body position drills, start-coast-stop, basic arm turns, altitude awareness, handle touches, exits at the mockup and an introduction to landing patterns (entry altitude, wind direction recognition, holding area, etc).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[marks2065 0]

that is why i like the set 400 - very forgiving canopy - no problem landing it with the students help even if they freeze in the middle of the flare - besides if you want high performance jump your own canopy - this jump is for the student not the ti's personal pleasure - i see alot of instructors that don't seem to care about the student, just the paycheck. if the ti and dzo are really concerned about the student they would by reasonable gear and conduct a class that would benefit the student not the video sales or the ti's personal flying pleasure

[douwanto 22]

The set 400 is the only Tandem Canopy I have fount myself able to collapse with the toggels also spin up with not very aggressive toggle input. I agree completly with the original post. If you require assistance from your student to land then you should not be doing tandems. I am not saying if you allow them to help. That is your choice. If you can not land a Tandem without their help you need to STOP doing tandems. I saw where someone in this thread said thats why the togle has 2 loops. They are for training. If you havent been stiff armed yet you will at some point by a student who just does not respond to you. I need my legs and back to walk and work so I am very careful with who I allow to assist me on landings especialy on a first tandem.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[douwanto 22]

Aggie the 370 is so much lighter than the 384. I am still jumping 1 ez384 in 1 rig and have an A2 350 in my other rig. A2 is awesome and light toggle pressure but the beast EZ keeps me in shape.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[skydived19006 4]

We have Icarus 330s and 365s, on a no wind day even with a straight in landing the ground speed is fairly high. I’ve landed and looked back at the tracks left as my feet dragged along the grass, and it can be well over 50’, and up to 100’. With these canopies there isn’t enough lift to bring it back up to a stand up, and if you could it wouldn’t slow down enough that “running it out” wouldn’t be a problem. In my openion the speed isn’t a problem, and I definitely like the air speed when the wind’s blowing 25mph! In answering the topic, I virtually never let the student help with the steering all the way to the ground. We don’t teach tandem progression, it is landing a fast relatively high performance, and often somewhat loaded (can be over 1.4/1) canopy, the fine adjustments on final can be hard to communicate. Also, when you have a big strong guy in front of you, and he decides that it’s time to flair at 50’, it can be hard to override when he has the ability to put a couple hundred lbs pull force on the toggles!

For what it’s worth, I’ve attached a picture of a no wind landing under a 330 Icarus.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[marks2065 0]

i know that there are conditions that you never let the student help land (high or gusty winds - bad students ) but on good days with good students definatly let them help and fly a canopy that allows this. lets start teaching instead ofgiving rides. we might even see a higher return to the dz and just think how much easier it might make the first aff when they actually already done what you ask them to do

[mfrese 0]

Just two comments...

If that's a no wind day, you need to rinse the starch outta that wind sock.

And I flare by myself, every time, every size student.

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[skydived19006 4]

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If that's a no wind day, you need to rinse the starch outta that wind sock.

Good point, I don't remember the day, but my guess is that it was L&V. It looks like I'm not even on the wind line (although could be somewhat deceptive).

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[beezyshaw 0]

I strongly feel that allowing the student to pull, steer, and flair the tandem canopy does give the student (notice I said "student" not "passenger") an increased sense of accomplishment over the more "non-instructional" type of tandems. And the end result of this is clear...your dz will have a much higher return rate for AFF if you actually treat tandem jumping as a method of instruction. I've done tandems for several drop zones, and at the one dz in particular that was adamant about using tandem as instruction, the numbers of returning students was very noticeable.
So for dz's that want tandems, tandems, tandems, just throw 'em in the plane and toss drogues; if you want to keep this sport growing (or I should say to once again START growing), then treat every first jumper as a real student and you'll soon be holding AFF courses at your dz to keep up with demand.