Strong Tandem Newletter

[DualHawk 0]

Attached is the latest edition of Strong Enterprises Tandem Newletter.

I have asked Sangiro for permission to post it here, as alot of the contents are universal tandem safety concepts that are not manufacturer specific. It's intent is to be an educational resource for all tandem instructors while at thet same time a resource to provide our Strong Tandem Instructors in the field with updated gear and training information.

That said, if you are a Strong rated Tandem Instructor, you will also receive a copy via email or snail mail. If you don't receive it, it means that we don't have your most recent contact info. If you think we have an old address/contact info, please feel free to email me your updated info to:

tandem@strongparachutes.com

If there are topics or issue that people would like to see discussed in future issues, or if you have a learning experience tandem jump story (first hand or not), that you think others would benefit from reading, feel free to email me your ideas as well. Tandem instructors, videographers or any DZ support staff that has suggestions on how we (as an industry) can continue to make our sport safer, your contributions are absolutely welcome.

Our website www.strongparachutes.com also has past Strong Tandem Newsletters dating back to 1989 in our archives. For anyone that is interested in the history of tandem skydiving, and wants to learn about some of the evolutions in gear and training techniques, I highly recommend taking a look at those archives.

If you have any questions, or if there is anything else tandem related I can help with, please feel free to shoot me an email. Looking forward to a successful 2007 season for us all.

Blue skies to all, and to all a good flight,

Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

(It's a large file, 4.26MB. Future issues will be posted as smaller files.)

[pchapman 279]

Well that sucks... for instructors with under 500 tandem jumps, having to do a tandem within every 30 days, or else have to do a recurrency jump.

Ninety days I've gotten used to, so that every spring at a northern DZ we instructors have to do one of those tandems with an experienced passenger (at our own cost with rig rental, at the DZ I jump).

I'd find the 30 day rule a big annoyance to worry about, if people actually bother to follow the rule. Although more likely to be an issue in spring or fall, even in summer it could come up. Maybe an instructor can be jumping at the DZ only every second weekend due to other commitments in life. Then if there's even one jump weekend away at another DZ or boogie (or focusing on other types of work & instruction at the DZ) and then there's a weekend of bad weather, bang, the instructor needs another recurrency jump.

It seems to be another example of creeping "professionalism" in the sport --- Good for some, bad for others.

I'm actually Vector/Sigma rated only (and maybe 400 tandems), so I'm just hoping such requirements don't spread any further.

[DJL 235]

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Maybe an instructor can be jumping at the DZ only every second weekend due to other commitments in life.

Said instructor needs to think about whether he's doing his students a disservice by not jumping enough.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[NSEMN8R 0]

I like the part about those with over 500.

We used to have to do 3 recurrency jumps, now it's only 1.

And DJL, I don't think there's anything wrong with a guy who takes every other weekend off.

[DJL 235]

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And DJL, I don't think there's anything wrong with a guy who takes every other weekend off.

Wasn't my point. More like that anyone who is really trying to learn something and get good at it should make it a priority; that would be a TM w/ fewer than 500 jumps or still in their first two years at it. But, everyone is different. I've just seen some sketchy shit from TM's on their first jumps back from a break. This crap about people just taking it as a carnival ride or just showing up to haul meat and pick up their check is bullshit.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[rhys 0]

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For anyone that is interested in the history of tandem skydiving, and wants to learn about some of the evolutions in gear and training techniques, I highly recommend taking a look at those archives.

evolutions in gear!!! WTF.

Strong tandem rigs are still using technology that has been proven to be inferior to other current models. Hard cutaways caused by an inferior 3 ring that is only still used because of stubboness, uncomfortable harnesses creating loss of circulation to the student, no attemt to redesign the stupid riser covers that failed to work the moment the velcro was removed and simply replaced by flaps, an Ill fitting instructor harnesses with only a megre attempt to make it adjustable....

O.K. they are cheap and therefore reasonably popular but hey there strong tandem and evolution don't belong in the same sentence!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[DualHawk 0]

Thank you for your reply Rhys. Hopefully I can help answer some of your comments.

The geometry of the 3-ring has been modified on the Dual Hawk main risers and the cutaway cables are also now coated with nylon, which together releave any pressure when cutting away. The Dual Hawk passenger harness has also been redesigned over the years to ensure optimal passenger comfort, our latest version is on display here at PIA. Most of the riser covers in the field that we are aware of, have no problem at all, but that said, having received input that the riser covers could be improved, I am currently working on a redesign that will further reduce the possibility of a riser cover coming open in freefall.

All that said, I realize that my opinion may be (obviously) consider biased, so I would be happy to put you in contact with riggers/gear dealers in your area that can reconfirm my comments, just shoot me an email at tandem@strongparachutes.com for thier contact info, and I would be happy to provide it.

Beyond those updates, there have been numerous other internal upgrades to the Dual Hawk Tandem System. Obviously, the basic design has not changed in years, because, well it works. That doesn't mean that it hasn't evolved as a tandem system. The Dual Hawk was not an adaptation of a sport rig for tandem, it was designed, from the ground up, as a dual passenger transport system. It was designed to be safe, reliable, durable and cost effective, and I believe it has lived up to those expectations over the years.

The point of my original post was to provide our latest newsletter with one goal in mind, to promote tandem safety. If you disagree with our "evolution" of the Dual Hawk, I would welcome your feedback. Please feel free to contact me at: tandem@strongparachutes.com or call me at (407) 859-9317.

Regards,

Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[rhys 0]

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The geometry of the 3-ring has been modified on the Dual Hawk main risers and the cutaway cables are also now coated with nylon, which together releave any pressure when cutting away.

So you are saying that Ted Has bitten the bullet and used the 3 ring as origionaly designed and the thickness of the centre ring is no longer larger inducing more force that required the system to have steel cutaway cables in the first place?

When I first started skydiving my instuctor told me a horror story, he had a line over on a strong tandem system and he could not cut away. Only with the assistance of his passenger after numerous attempts he was able to get rid of the canopy. He said he tried to contact Ted himself or anyone to answer his questions but no one was willing to comment! This was about 5 years ago in christchurch New Zealand. I have investigated into this further and was told that the origional design had pulled the yellow cutaway cables through the grommets on the risers making a cutaway impossible and that is why strong tandems have metal cutaway cabels. The metal on metal friction gives a harder cutaway as well as the inferior 3 ring set up! The new plastic coating on the cables reduces the friction but not the pull force on the cable.

It was said that the only reason Ted did not use the 3 ring as origionaly invented was purely because of the bickering that resulted at the begining of Bill and Teds excellent adventure into the tandem skydiving world?

Is the 3 ring now ammended to the safest configuration known? I know aerodyne use a differnt system but that has not yet lead to a harder cutaway.

The attitude behind the reasoning not to use the 3 ring as invented and the prevalence of an inferior system through stubbornness turns me away from strong tandem rigs. I have performed 100's of tandems on Strong but fortunately i have not had to cut one away.

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I am currently working on a redesign that will further reduce the possibility of a riser cover coming open in freefall.

Good luck with that! it seems the flat packed reserve makes it quite hard to pack it so there is no tention on the flaps. I have paked 1000's of srongs(mains only i am not a rigger) and even though i try to training the covers to stay in place they do not.
The flap coming open prior to freefall is more of a concern to me. Iwouldn't want to get hooked uo on somthing on the way out!
Maybe if the flap that has the tab on it came from the outside of the shoulder and slips into a pocket on the reserve flap it would lose the Pre Historic look of the rig and would work better?

Also with a few newer new strong tandems i have had noticable slippage in the buckles but I know that you guys were working on that in recent history?

Blue Skies,

Rhys

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[tkhayes 348]

hmm, pretty harsh assessment
1. Never had a hard cutaway on a Strong - and I have more cutaways than anyone else I know
2. Inferior how? Everytime the tandem industry came up with a problem, Strong often implemented a change or solution with no prodding from the field. Unlike some competitors who continuously told me "There is nothing wrong with the rig - the TM screwed up"
3. uncomfortable harnesses? If you fit them right and adjust somewhat under canopy they are just fine. We (until 3 days ago) still were using some of the oldest harnesses around, and they work fine. Thanks to some of our input, Strong has even a better harness today (again responding to the needs of the field)
4. Our riser covers work just fine

Ugly? Maybe. Functional and safe? Completely. Comfortable? Up to the individual to make it so, and yes, generally they are.

My $0.02

TK

[rhys 0]

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2. Inferior how? Every time the tandem industry came up with a problem, Strong often implemented a change or solution with no prodding from the field. Unlike some competitors who continuously told me "There is nothing wrong with the rig - the TM screwed up"

The 3 ring is inferior as earlier mentioned, The centre ring is fatter than the middle ring as invented by Bill Booth, now from what I can understand through my research is that Ted Strong decided he had to design his own 3 ring because Bill and Ted had moved their own ways at that point in time. Ted’s fatter middle ring created much more tension as it was an inferior lever. I was told that a yellow cutaway cable had been pulled through the grommet on the riser on at least 1 occasion and prompted the wire cutaway cables seen on Strong tandems today.

Q. Why wasn't the 3 ring amended?

A. Obstinacy

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3. uncomfortable harnesses? If you fit them right and adjust somewhat under canopy they are just fine. We (until 3 days ago) still were using some of the oldest harnesses around, and they work fine. Thanks to some of our input, Strong has even a better harness today (again responding to the needs of the field)

So you have to make them comfortable, and adjust them under parachute! I can remember doing that, it was easy.....not. especially when you couldn't get to the straps because they sank into the customers thighs.

they need to be wider and contain closed cell foam.

do they now? Do they still choke th customer on opening and pull their shoudors back? They always did for me.

On our other learding brand haness the customer is sat up comfortably in a more seat like position and I have never had a customer that could not lift thier legs for landing. Even the chunky ones.
On Strong I had people go to sleep (a couple of hungover males) on me. They said thiey had pins and needles in thier legs. We tried to djust the harness on both occasions but both of these time the customer simply went to sleep!

We all have our own opinions and we are entitled to them. As the origional poster was a representive of Strong enterprises I took the opportunity for the questions I have, to be answered. This is a public forum and this is the purpose of the forum.

Another leading brands owner, spends a noticeable amount of time discussing gear and answering questions in these forums. I don't have any angst and I would jump a strong today. I would never buy one though for the reasons mentioned and a few others!

blue skies,

Rhys

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[tkhayes 348]

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I was told that a yellow cutaway cable had been pulled through the grommet on the riser on at least 1 occasion and prompted the wire cutaway cables seen

yellow cutaway cables have been pulled through the grommets on MANY rigs, tandems and sport rigs alike. Problem was solved, as I said, Strong responded to a problem and have steel cables now, much stronger and smoother for that matter.

and I have had people fall asleep on Vector tandems, Strong tandems, people fat and thin have trouble lifting their legs, whatever.

Apparently there is a 'correct' way and an 'incorrect' way to adjust ANY harness for ANY person. One is no better than the other.

As a matter of fact, I know of a DZ that uses the Sugma rigs, but prefers the Strong passenger harness. Not approved, but that is what they use.

I started with Vector, got tired of piss-poor customer service, lack of parts and an attitude that they simply will hang you if you make a mistake.

Strong is responsive in the market, they have a great working system, their share of problems, but at least they do something about it.

Strong could use a new canopy, yes, they could make the rig prettier, yes, they could make a less-expensive drogue system, yes, but the problems that you are talkign about are pretty minor. i.e., I know of no fatality/accident related to a hard cutaway.

I'll stand by the system. Is the SIgma better? Maybe, but I will not go back to UPT due to the bridges they burned many years ago.

TK

[rhys 0]

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As a matter of fact, I know of a DZ that uses the Sugma rigs, but prefers the Strong passenger harness. Not approved, but that is what they use.

Why would you do that! you just put yourself in the shit if anything happens, that is a stupid example!

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Is the SIgma better? Maybe, but I will not go back to UPT due to the bridges they burned many years ago.

You are obviously very stubbon, Yes the sigma is much better. The one thing that is wonderful about the strong though, is the position the tandem pair are in, while in drougefall. it is much better Photographs and also gives the pair a better range of vision. you get that with the racer tandem too. I think Jump Shack can take the credit for that design.

for every other reason the Sigma is better! But that is just my opinion.

blue skies,

Rhys

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[tkhayes 348]

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Why would you do that! you just put yourself in the shit if anything happens, that is a stupid example!

People put themselves 'in shit' every day. That does not make it a stupid example. That demonstrates that not everyone agrees with you that the Strong is inferior, especially the passenger harness.

Apparently some think it is SUPERIOR to the UPT harness.

Stubborn? Maybe, but remember, I have jumped both rigs for substantial periods of time. I formed an opinion, not only on the basis of the rig alone, but on the company that backs it.

I will take the Strong any day.

TK

[feuergnom 28]

shouldn't we take discussions of the inferiority/superiority of certain tandem brands to gear and rigging? we could also resurrect some old threads


I think it's great that finally a strong representative made it to dz.com!

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[DualHawk 0]

Hi Rhys,

My original post was solely intended to provide our latest newsletter to a global audience, as (with Sangiro's approval) I felt that it had some universal safety info that went beyond manufacturer rating cards. You took an enthusiastic exception to my secondary comment regarding "evolutions" of the Dual Hawk, to which, I believe I was able to answer for you.

As I mentioned before, there have been a number of updates (mostly internal) to the Dual Hawk, that you may not be aware of, and I'd be glad to discuss any of them with you. I offered my email and phone contact info for you to address any other issues, but have not heard from you, except for rereading this thread. I am not online all the time, so if you sincerely have a question that you would like answered, I would ask that you email or call me directly. You are then welcome to post any reply that I make on these forums.

As for this thread however, it was never intended to be a gear review, it was intended as a safety/education post, so I can't debate the different rigs out there with you here, as I don't feel it would be appropriate.

I will be in NZ later this year and would be happy to arrange for you to see the latest version of the Dual Hawk and it's canopies. We can take the rig apart, and I can show you all the updates from the inside out.

Regarding the passenger harness, to be fair, i spend alot of time in it these days.....lol, and I find it extremely comfortable. Same goes for the instructor harness, I can spend all day in it and be perfectly comfortable.

I will be out of the country until Feb 19th, and will respond to any email/calls I get when I return.

Regards,

Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[tqsmile 0]

ditto

TQ
I am me and you are you, so deal with it!!!
www.skydivepe.com

[riggerrob 643]

Early on (maybe my third tandem cutaway) I learned that throwing the extra drogue release handle, dramatically reduces pull forces on the cutaway handle.

[rhys 0]

I never actually extract it! just pull it until the bag lifts and push it back in. no hassle. the rip cord is bach in place before the slider comes down.

I'm jumping sigma now though so no worries about that anymore and also a number of now impossible malfunctions.

I like sigma

I would jump strong if i have to, or vector 2 for that matter but prefer to stray away from it if i can.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[riggerrob 643]

they need to be wider and contain closed cell foam.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Oh!
Do you mean like Vector I? ... the least comfortable tandem instructor harness that I ever wore! I hated the way the hard bound edges rubbed on my naughty bits as I walked to the airplane.
Making leg pads three times wider than my skinny buttocks is the wrong answer!

[riggerrob 643]

... uncomfortable harnesses creating loss of circulation to the student ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You clearly have not jumped any of the ringed student harnesses built since 2000(?).

[riggerrob 643]

So you have to make them comfortable, and adjust them under parachute! I can remember doing that, it was easy.....not. especially when you couldn't get to the straps because they sank into the customers thighs.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bill Booth addressed this topic during the 2007 PIA Symposium. Bill said that fat is infinitely compressible and the only way you can get a harness to fit a fat chick is by pre-compressing her thighs with multiple layers of duct tape.
Hee!
Hee!
The bottom is that obese people should not skydive.

[riggerrob 643]

Do they still choke the customer on opening and pull their shoudlers back? They always did for me.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Then your harness was not properly adjusted.
Hint: adjusting instructions for the new (ringed) harnesses also work well for older Strong harnesses. If you start by positioning the ring at the front of the student's hips, then it helps them lift their feet for landing, on both old and new pattern student harnesses.