livendive 8 #1 June 19, 2007 I'm curious what other instructors are using as a rule of thumb for staying or getting current, mostly with an eye toward students. It seems fairly common to require a repeat of the last level when more than 30 days have passed, but at what point do you require refresher training? At what point do you make them start over? What about "novices" (cleared for solo jumps but not yet A-licensed)? And licensed jumpers with a long time out of sport (several years)? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #2 June 20, 2007 If I have a private student that hasn't jumped in awhile, or has even gone 2 or 3 weeks in between jumps, I will quiz then on the things they remember. If they have any dout or answered questions unsatisfactory to me, I'll give them a short refresher so they know whats needed BEFORE I take them into the air. Some students retain alot, and some retain little when not at the DZ. A simple quiz will let you know if they need a refresher to total retraining. As for experienced jumpers that haven't jumped in awhile, dont let them fool you into thinking they still know everything. Some will suprise you in the air as to how shitty they really were......... Be safe Ed www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #3 June 20, 2007 QuoteAnd licensed jumpers with a long time out of sport (several years)? I jumped with a guy with 200+ jumps and 5 years out of the sport. I asked questions, he remembered just about everything. He was disciplined, he practiced his EPs before meeting me, and he visualized and practiced the dive on the ground. We did a jump - and after turning many points, it was clear it was like riding a bike. I have little experience with people who take years off, but I kind of think it is like riding a bike.... Since this is a good thread, I do have a question.... Does anyone have the opposite experience, where a few years out of the sport caused issues with people with, say 100+ jumps? What about below 100 jumps? I have done other re-currency jumps with people with less time out - and I always have been comfortable with what they remembered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #4 June 20, 2007 Some will suprise you in the air as to how shitty they really were......... Be safe Ed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. What is even more scary is when licensed skydiers drop off their reserves for repacks and I tell them to wrap their harnesses around their shoulders, then spin them around and tell them about scary malfunctions. You would be amazed at how many of them allow me to spin them around for thirty seconds, with no attempt to pull any more handles!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #5 June 20, 2007 I filmed a 3way jump with one jumper doing his fifth (i think) jump after quite a long layoff (15yrs?), he has a couple hundred jumps. I got drafted with little time for briefing so not 100% clear on the details. But he was free to jump with others. The other 2 jumpers were reasonably current, with one having more jumps than me, this was her 30-yrs-in-sport-celebration jump. Jump went absolutely great, even after a slightly botched exit, except for the fact that some of the pics were against the sun. OK so we do the same jump again and face into the sun this time ok? Boy did that jump go straight to hell. Worse than 50-jump skydivers i've jumped with. No clue about what was going on after the funneled exit. And no clue how to start to fix it. No desire on my part to redo THAT jump He should definately stick to 2ways with competent skydivers for a while! ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #6 June 20, 2007 QuoteI'm curious what other instructors are using as a rule of thumb for staying or getting current, mostly with an eye toward students. Here's an observation from (someone who avoids becoming an instructor like the plague): The more they act like they know it all and give the "hey, just throw me out of the plane" attitude - likely correlates to more training needed. If they are alert and have the "let me know what to do and how to do it, and I won't give you a hard time about it no matter how many jumps I made 5 years ago" - they likely will do fine. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
inextremis 0 #7 June 21, 2007 I've seen several people come back after layoffs of a year or more--I personally came back after a multi-year lay off. It seems to me that basic stability, EPs, and most of the book knowledge really sticks. What has to be rebuilt over several jumps--in some cases dramatically so--is altitude awareness. For some reason, gauging time in freefall and distance from the ground goes away, and they have to work their altitude checks very mechanically for a while until they begin to do it naturally and consistently. Just one observation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aironscott 3 #8 June 21, 2007 Congratulations Dave. That was your 10,000th post. You are officially a Super Dork. Well done.“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #9 June 21, 2007 Quote Congratulations Dave. That was your 10,000th post. You are officially a Super Dork. Well done. Actually it wasn't, but I'll accept the designation anyhow. Does this mean I'm now qualified to play online pinochle for hundreds of hours per month? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrenchyDiver 0 #10 June 21, 2007 As far as student goes, definitely a ground refresher, such as EPs, alti awareness, and a skills from the previous dive. As for the jump itself well, it will depend on how long, it was since the last jump. I usually refer these questions to the AFFIs. With regards to licensed jumpers, I was in that case, so I will tell you what I did. I took a 10 year break. I had 100+ jumps at that time. When I decided to jump again, I attended a FJC then did an AFF type jump with two instructors. Goals were stability, alti awareness, practice pulls, 90 degree turns. Afterwards, a few coached jumps to work on basic group freefall skills (Fall rates, forward & redocks, tracking and the likes). Once cleared, I stuck with small group dives (2 or 3 ways) til I got back to the level I was at 10 years before. That was worked for me. For others it will vary, of course you will find that every person is different (but you already knew that, right ?) For some it will be like riding a bike, for others, like myself, it will take a little more than one jump to get back to a safe level. As already mentionned, the "I still know everything and besides you were still wearing diapers when I quit types" are the ones who tend to be more problematic Hispas Brothers President HISPA #2, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #11 June 28, 2007 QuoteI'm curious what other instructors are using as a rule of thumb for staying or getting current, mostly with an eye toward students. It seems fairly common to require a repeat of the last level when more than 30 days have passed, but at what point do you require refresher training? At what point do you make them start over? What about "novices" (cleared for solo jumps but not yet A-licensed)? And licensed jumpers with a long time out of sport (several years)? Regardless of prior experience, I run them through a detailed quiz/review/teach focusing on EPs and obstacles. I quiz/review/teach equipment components, what they do and when how to use them. I check them out on freefall body position, dive flow, canopy control and landing patterns. Then on to the actual jump. If for any reason I feel that they just don't "get it", I will insist that they go through the entire FJC again and I have had a few that really needed it.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #12 June 28, 2007 QuoteRegardless of prior experience, I run them through a detailed quiz/review/teach focusing on EPs and obstacles. I quiz/review/teach equipment components, what they do and when how to use them. I check them out on freefall body position, dive flow, canopy control and landing patterns. Then on to the actual jump. If for any reason I feel that they just don't "get it", I will insist that they go through the entire FJC again and I have had a few that really needed it. Right on! Great post! The Test will really help with the initial evaluation. I have a good friend who was giving someone with 150 jumps a refresher, he let go of him in freefall because "they guy has 150 jumps" and in hindsight, he really wishes he wouldn’t have... Made for a great video though…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #13 June 28, 2007 Quote Quote Regardless of prior experience, I run them through a detailed quiz/review/teach focusing on EPs and obstacles. I quiz/review/teach equipment components, what they do and when how to use them. I check them out on freefall body position, dive flow, canopy control and landing patterns. Then on to the actual jump. If for any reason I feel that they just don't "get it", I will insist that they go through the entire FJC again and I have had a few that really needed it. Right on! Great post! The Test will really help with the initial evaluation. I have a good friend who was giving someone with 150 jumps a refresher, he let go of him in freefall because "they guy has 150 jumps" and in hindsight, he really wishes he wouldn’t have... Made for a great video though… Hey, I didn't post the video online! Yes, it was someone with 150 jumps who prompted me to start this thread. However I didn't let go of him. I wrestled him from exit till it was time to give him a parachute. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #14 June 28, 2007 Quote [Hey, I didn't post the video online! Yes, it was someone with 150 jumps who prompted me to start this thread. However I didn't let go of him. I wrestled him from exit till it was time to give him a parachute. This guy I am talking about had 150 ripcord jumps, de-arched, when ape shit when let go, when he deployed, held the PC, looked over his shoulder and thinking he has a total, fired his reserve! After saddling in under his reserve, proceeded to stow the PC in his jumpsuit as if it were a ripcord, and landed without further incident. He was trained really well, just a testament to how old muscle memory is difficult to overwrite. Yes, very exciting video… -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #15 June 28, 2007 Quote Quote [Hey, I didn't post the video online! Yes, it was someone with 150 jumps who prompted me to start this thread. However I didn't let go of him. I wrestled him from exit till it was time to give him a parachute. This guy I am talking about had 150 ripcord jumps, de-arched, when ape shit when let go, when he deployed, held the PC, looked over his shoulder and thinking he has a total, fired his reserve! After saddling in under his reserve, proceeded to stow the PC in his jumpsuit as if it were a ripcord, and landed without further incident. He was trained really well, just a testament to how old muscle memory is difficult to overwrite. Yes, very exciting video… - My guy was converting from ROL to BOC and was quite nervous (read ridiculously stiff). He didn't hold on to the pilot chute, he just couldn't find it and fought my attempts to put his hand on it (in addition to fighting my attempts to hold us stable and on-heading). He's since gotten back in the groove and is doing fine now, outside of still being a bit nervous. I always wear a camera on AFF jumps, and did on this one even though I'd called it a coach jump and charged accordingly. It was fun showing the video to our brand spankin' new coaches as an exaggerated example of what they're getting themselves into. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #16 June 28, 2007 Quote If I have a private student that hasn't jumped in awhile, or has even gone 2 or 3 weeks in between jumps, I will quiz then on the things they remember. If they have any dout or answered questions unsatisfactory to me, I'll give them a short refresher so they know whats needed BEFORE I take them into the air. Some students retain alot, and some retain little when not at the DZ. A simple quiz will let you know if they need a refresher to total retraining. As for experienced jumpers that haven't jumped in awhile, dont let them fool you into thinking they still know everything. Some will suprise you in the air as to how shitty they really were......... Be safe Ed I agree with Ed on everything he said basically, but have found that some people with quite a bit of time out of the sport barely lose any aptitude or ability. Case in point: I just had an old friend who last jumped with me 16 years ago at the GB club on Fort Bragg. He quit with just under 200 jumps to go fly helicopters. The guy (Brent Kluge who posts as "pawnmower" on here now) was run through a thorough refresher, did some table drills with a BOC-equipped trainer, then went up with myself and two other AFFI's on a four-way. He did a solo diving exit, three practice touches, right 360, left 360, then flew in and docked on the formation and we turned two more points of four way. Perfect landing in the peas, too. We were all stoked. 16 years without jumping! He left the DZ after the weekend having already purchased brand new gear and now flys down here every two weeks and jumps his ass off. (over 100 jumps in the past month and a half on his new gear). He may be the exception, but I also have two other buddies who jumped with me and Brent back then that can go five years without jumping and still pull off ten point four-ways. My only caution to those guys is to please refrain from busting big hookturns like they used to. THAT is a perishible skill. My rule for my students is that you must make a jump at least once every thirty days if you hope to ever graduate. I will positively make a lapsed student re-do their last level if they go a day over 30 days. Likewise, I will thoroughly review the critical survival tasks and make them prove to me that they fully understand the skydive. The same goes for unlicensed jumpers who are past Category E and are doing F,G, and H coaching. They must make a jump every thirty days or they require refresher training and possibly, according to how long of a break they have taken, going back to Cat E. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #17 June 28, 2007 Quote I agree with Ed on everything he said basically, but have found that some people with quite a bit of time out of the sport barely lose any aptitude or ability. Many do retain their skills while away from the sport for awhile. My point was for upcoming AFF I's, to never let your guard down, even with experienced jumpers. Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
