Poor Instruction

[tinay 0]

Do you believe AFF Student are getting a good deal. The reason I ask is that I see more and more videos of Student's AFF jumps and wonder how on earth they are signed off Student status!

Some centers are so busy that they don't appear to spend much time briefing their Students well and pass them from one level to the next. They get off Student status and are left to fend for themselves. Sometimes I think it is only luck that they don't have a problem when they are doing solos, because I believe that if they did they may not be able cope.

They eventually get there, but it is often down to them, rather than the poor instruction they received.

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

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They eventually get there, but it is often down to them

I believe good instruction is always a plus but ultimately I think any responsible jumper is doing what they can to learn the sport better. That might mean reading the sims, practicing EPs, packing videos, etc. I guess I'm saying that the students certainly bear a big part of the responsibility in the process.

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They get off Student status and are left to fend for themselves.

Some centers are busy and hopefully there is a support group of experienced jumpers available to help the new kids learn. IMO the new kids shouldn't have to pay someone to jump with them and mentor them. Do new jumpers sometimes fend for themselves? Yes and it is too bad. That said, coach jumps are a great tool and for some students that is the preferred method of learning. For other students, the spectrum might run from no coach jumps to a few coach jumps to get to the same level of proficiency.

There are standards when doing a check dive and from what I have seen the students doing the check dives meet the criteria or they keep trying until they do meet the criteria. Some people can do it at 25 jumps and some people need 50 jumps or more before getting signed off of student status.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[speedy 0]

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Do you believe AFF Student are getting a good deal.

Depends, what is the deal exactly?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[AFFI 0]

What exactly are your credentials?
Your background professionally?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[jimjumper 25]

Who are you?!!! If you don't fill out a profile then it's a little tough give your whining any credence.

[popsjumper 2]

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Who are you?!!! If you don't fill out a profile then it's a little tough give your whining any credence.

Who cares? A legitimate question was raised and a personal observation was made. Do YOU have any input?

I, too, see the same thing...at most of the DZs I have visited. With only a couple of exceptions, post-FJC training seems to be rather haphazard at best and "courtesy passing" seems to prevail.

We seem to be raising people who jump out of airplanes...not skydivers.

IMO, every school needs to have students return to the classroom after every training jump prior to "cleared for self-supervision" status. It should be a requirement for every student to purchase a SIM. Every post-training jump should be monitored by a Coach or AFFI all the way to A-license.

Practical? Probably not at most DZs. Doable? Most definitely yes.

Here's a question for you...
When you sign off on knowledge-based items on progression cards, do you teach and sign or do you quiz and sign?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tinay 0]

I filled in my profile now. Does that make my question (which was in good faith) now more valid?

[AFFI 0]

Cool, I bow to you humbly with all sincerity..

With some searches you may find many revelations, concerning the inadequacies and strengths of solo freefall instructors which has been discussed ad nauseam in these threads over the years.

With so many years as an instructor, perhaps you would have the gist of the issue by now.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[jimjumper 25]

Sorry, I was being cranky that day! I personally work for a smaller school so we are able to be much more one on one than usual. We guide them all the way through their "A" license and then introduce them to load organizers that help further their skills. We also have available specialized canopy coaches and also an on-site wind tunnel. We find that most of our students progress fairly quickly compared to the training of 20 years ago.

[riggerrob 643]

The quality of the final product depends as much on the student as it does on the instructor.
For example, if a student only wants to get his main packing endorsement signed off, he will pack the bare minimum - needed for the sign-off - then never touch a pull-up cord again.

The quality of the final product is largely determined by the curiosity of the student. Curious students will always strive to learn more and improve every year. Lazy students will do the bare minimum needed to pass and never progress beyond that.

[popsjumper 2]

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The quality of the final product depends as much on the student as it does on the instructor.

Yes, there is that. "You can take a horse to the water but..."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tinay 0]

A lot of the replies indicate that the Student has a great deal to do with as to how they progress. That was my original point, what I felt was that often the Student progress in spite of their training, not because of it.

All the good conciencious instructors have replied, but how often do you see poor instruction and bad value to the Student.

I believe for some not enough time is spent with the Students on the ground, giving good briefs and debriefs

[AFFI 0]

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what I felt was that often the Student progress in spite of their training, not because of it.

If someone experiences a function repetitively they will improve (at their own rate) and traverse toward levels of proficiency. I went through old school AFF and did not know what a flat turn was until I had a couple hundred jumps.
I did not learn much on AFF student status compared to what the graduated students of the course I teach obtain, in fact they are where I was knowledge wise after 150+ jumps.

Did I have poor instructors?
Was I just a slow learning student?

I believe that my instruction was adequate for the program utilized at the DZ I undertook student status at.
I believe that I was able to grasp and learn in the AFF training method quickly.

Perhaps more than anything, the issue for my (lack of) personal understanding of good sound fundamental knowledge was the program of study I undertook. The curriculum is one of the primary aspects concerning the body of knowledge any given student will graduate with.

With certainty I believe that an additional aspect which is undoubtedly important is the amount of effort each individual student puts forth in applying themselves to learn any given syllabus.
The “backbone” of the equation is the instructors; they are the ones responsible to do their very best in teaching the curriculum that the skydiving school they work at employs to a variety of individual students that learn in differing ways. Quite a monumental feat and varying instructors have strengths and weaknesses that can compliment one another IF the instructional staff works together, that is the tricky part.
The “central nervous system” of that backbone is the management of the instructional staff. There should be regular meetings, practice jumps and sharing of techniques and information and to ensure that everyone is on the same page in their understanding and the DZ’s intended implementation of their syllabus. This will better ensure that any deficiencies in the instructional staff are addressed and are improved in order to provide the best instruction possible for our clients, the skydiving students which is the most important aspect to consider no?

Certainly, some skydiving instructors are more through than others, some are better teachers, some are better flyers and some just want to enjoy the status and boost their jump numbers as much as possible without applying themselves in the most important job in skydiving, teaching others to do it safely with a solid foundation of fundamental skills.
And some just do not possess the ability to teach…

I personally would hold a higher standard necessary to acquire a rating for solo freefall instruction – but??? There are so many variables involved and it is not like we can form a union or anything eh?

The structure of the skydiving family tree to me is comparable to the drug cartel.
The drug lords are like the successful DZOs.
The pushers are the instructors.
The junkies are the fun jumpers are the sport jumpers who just cannot get enough.

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I believe for some not enough time is spent with the Students on the ground, giving good briefs and debriefs

Agree wholeheartedly.
Don’t think that is going to change unless this industry changes and puts the skydiving professional above carny status on a societal level.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[riggerrob 643]

I don’t think that is going to change unless this industry changes and puts the skydiving professional above carny status on a societal level.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

I was very recently a student. I chose my skydiving school carefully and was quite satisfied.

Some people and organizations focus attention on "graduating AFF". Personally, I didn't find AFF hard. I found the tasks between AFF and my license to be much harder. I benefited greatly from having high quality instructors and coaches using a high quality curriculum (SKYDIVE UNIVERSITY @ Skydive Dallas). My coaches got me from AFF to my license.

I have decided that the key tasks a student must complete in AFF to be HIGH IMPORTANCE but not terribly complex. I found many of the post-AFF tasks to be more complex and demanding.

Because of the high risk if the student fails the AFF tasks, we use highly experienced instructors to teach and supervise them. We typically use less experienced jumpers as coaches. However, the complexity of the instructional task for the post-AFF skills is probably more demanding. Of course, the AFF instructor needs a high level of air skills to keep the AFF student safe, but the coach may need a higher level of TEACHING ability to help the post-AFF student master the more complex tasks.

All of my coaches and instructors appeared to work FAR harder and longer on the ground briefing and de-briefing me than they did in the air.

I cannot answer your original question, but I know that I got my $ worth from my instructors and coaches. They weren't cheap... but I got what I paid for!

Once again (see my previous posts) I want to thank and praise my coaches for putting up with me when I was a slow learner post-AFF. I hope to make you proud this summer with my rookie 4-way RW team ("F squared")! You get all the credit when I do well, I get all the blame when I screw up.

Blue Skies.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[mattaman 0]

Agree wholeheartedly.
Don’t think that is going to change unless this industry changes and puts the skydiving professional above carny status on a societal level.


Agreed, people need to learn how the experience is internal and junkies or addicts are people running away from finding their inferiority complex and the desperate need to be seen and build a superiority complex. These people are nausiatingly dramatic, think their superior to others, and are generally the worst instructors preying off people to see them.

Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

[riggerrob 643]

Part of the problem is that students naturally FORGET significant chunks of what they learn, so that even if they passed an evaluation dive, a few months later they might perform at a lower standard.

Read what the Australian Parachute Federation' Instructor Manual says about "over-learning."
IOW the Aussies recommend teaching TOO MUCH in hopes that critical survival skills will be retained in long-term memory.

Mind you, this over-teaching has to be done with a delicate hand, because if overwhelmed students perceive that the new information is not relevant to today's jump, they will immediately dump the new information before it has a chance to lodge in their memory.
For example, if a first jump student believes that he depend upon a radio for canopy control, he will ignore the lecture on how to fly a landing pattern.

[tinay 0]

The principals of good instruction will always be the same:

'Must know
Should know
Could Know'


'Keep it simple stupid'


'Drill, drill......'