conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off

[camamel 0]

I don't understand how loose some DZ operate.
Examiner are supposed to teach new TI how things should be done...safely. DZO have to make sure (throughout their manager,chief instructor or by themself) that thoses guidelines are follow.
Skydiving is a business like any other. Tandem,AFF and first jump course is our product.
Every serious business, all over the world, that really care about their final product do random check through their production line to always maintain the highest quality.

If we teach an instructor to do something a certain way but never check back on him, he will probably end up doing something different.

Skydiving is our business, we don't deal with bananas but with real people.

If we are not able to have and maintain a quality system for our custommer by ourself then the government will do it for us. That we don't want!!
Have a look at the first page of Skydiving mag of November 2007.

That's what I think

Richard

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[tsalnukt 1]

What about ONLY hooking up the lower connector on the wall side and running the seatbelt around the lower connector.....IOW, the student is attached to the TI with ONE lower and the seatbelt goes around it.

[camamel 0]

What about if the plane crash on take off, and the TI is unconcious or dead?
Not only the passenger will have to undo his seat belt in a emergency situation but you also ask him to do the same with the lower or drag the TI outside!!

No way

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[riggerrob 643]

Agreed!

I don't attach any hooks until we climb above 4,000 feet.

That is my minimum altitude for bailing out - of a stricken airplane - and pulling my reserve.

[tinay 0]

In the UK Tandem parachuting has taken place since 1984, with many hundreds of thousands of jumps. All tandem students must be fully hooked up prior to take off. This has never caused a problem in the UK, in that time there has only been on crash landing a few forced landings with tandems on board and the tandem students have all gotten out without a problem - on the crash the instructor died. Perhaps aircraft are maintained better in the UK!

There have been quite a number of instances over the years in the USA and around the World, where it is not mandatory to hook-up before take-off, where the taken pair have exited, either not hooked-up, or partially hooked-up.

Perhaps it might be best to decide whether to hook-up or not prior to take by looking at the most likely senario. i.e. instructors worn out at the end of a long hot day, making the wrong decisions!

[bclark 0]

I don't think that forgetting / remembering to hook your student up has anything to do with WHEN you do it. It is about doing it in a standardized way.

I understand and respect your opinion, but
when comparing tandem / aircraft accident statistics between the U.S. and the UK, I would take into consideration the vastly greater numbers of skydiving flights and tandem jumps conducted in the U.S.

It is the instructors job to hook up his student AND double check that the student is properly secured before exit.

[johnny1488 1]

I have the student put a seatbelt on before take off and show them how it works (stupid but necessary) and tell them to take it off at 1000ft. I remind them to but I make them responsible.

I hook up the top left connector anytime the door is open at any altitude. If you have to get out, I have been instructed the top left is the one. Get out, wrap your right arm around the student to stabilize them and deploy the reserve with your free left. Lowers are a waste of time in my opinion. You cant control your student with a lower just connected even if its tight. with the upper you can wrestle them (relatively) better and with the left you can deploy your reserve.

And I will get out at any altitude with the reserve if death is assured by staying in the plane.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[feuergnom 28]

aren't there any manufacturer-recommendations?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[diablopilot 2]

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Perhaps aircraft are maintained better in the UK!

Perhaps ya'll don't fly very much compared to other places in the world. Just a thought from a dumb yank.
OH, and I do not think it prudent to hold the BPA up as the shining way of doing things.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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OH, and I do not think it prudent to hold the BPA up as the shining way of doing things.

Why not?

[cpoxon 0]

The Australian Transport Safety Board have made a recommendation in response to an
accident that occured on the 2nd of January 2006 with regards to the harnessing of tandem
students during take-off:

Quote

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority advise all self-administered sports parachuting organisations (other than the Australian Parachute Federation) to include instructions in their Training Operations Manual, or equivalent, to define when tandem parachutists should be harnessed together, with a view to optimising the likelihood of parachutists successfully exiting an aircraft in the event of an aircraft emergency, including when below the safe release point.

Safety issue
The practice of harnessing tandem parachutists together during the take-off roll and climb out of the aircraft could negatively impact occupants’ survivability in the event of an aircraft-related emergency.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[davegresh 0]

I quite like the way we do it in the UK, with the student attached at all 4 points from take off.

If everything is going OK, it's comfortable for the instructor and student, and you don't have to worry about the door being open, hooking up at altitude etc.

If you have an emergency above your minimum exit height, you can be out of the aircraft in a couple of seconds. If you're lower down and have to land with the plane, I think that 'all bets are off' - what's good for one crash scenario may not be the right thing in another. I think that bad jumpship crashes are so rare there's no absolute right or wrong answer.

If i did have to make a forced landing, I'd be inclined to keep the student as close as possible. that way there is less chance of them moving around and injuring themselves or others.

And if you wanted the student unattached so they can get out of the crash on the ground, its only going to take a couple of seconds to disconnect the student once you realise that the aircaft is going down.

FWIW i do most of my tandems out of Grand Caravans, and we sit on the floor and use restraints rather than seats and seatbelts.

[tsalnukt 1]

I had a TM that was doing this. I watched him do it, right after a staff meeting where this very same issue was brought up, and didn't say anything until after he landed, When I approached him he said OK. I saw him do it again and said something to him in the plane. Then other TM's tell me that he is STILL doing it. When I approached him a again he started arguing with me telling me I don't know what I'm talking (I'm the s&ta on the DZ as well aas a TI)about and this is the way he was taught to do it in his Tandem rating course. I told him he that this was UNSAFE and if I saw him do it again he's grounded. He then went to the DZO and when he told him that this was unsafe he started arguing with him, but in the end agreed to not hook up the student until after 1000 feet. He was later fired for leaving a student standing next to the plane with the props spinning. I found out later that after all that he was still hooking up one lower connector on the ground. Some people Shouldn't be instructors.

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

I quite like the way we do it in the UK, with the student attached at all 4 points from take off.

If everything is going OK, it's comfortable for the instructor and student, and you don't have to worry about the door being open, hooking up at altitude etc.

If you have an emergency above your minimum exit height, you can be out of the aircraft in a couple of seconds. If you're lower down and have to land with the plane, I think that 'all bets are off' - what's good for one crash scenario may not be the right thing in another. I think that bad jumpship crashes are so rare there's no absolute right or wrong answer.

If i did have to make a forced landing, I'd be inclined to keep the student as close as possible. that way there is less chance of them moving around and injuring themselves or others.

And if you wanted the student unattached so they can get out of the crash on the ground, its only going to take a couple of seconds to disconnect the student once you realise that the aircaft is going down.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Maybe???
The worst scenario is when you crash with a tandem student still attached and your cannot release them because your arm is broken, or there are a dozen guys laying on it.
My attitude on this subject is biased by the Hinckley and Perris crashes in 1992. After the Perris crash, several victims - in the front of the Twin Otter - were suffocated by other victims laying on top of them.

That is why I prefer to wait until we are high enough to bail out before attaching any hooks.

• Quote

[riggerrob 643]

FWIW i do most of my tandems out of Grand Caravans, and we sit on the floor and use restraints rather than seats and seatbelts.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

quite like the way we do it in the UK, with the student attached at all 4 points from take off.

Well I can tell you've never done tandems out of a 182 or a 206. Show me how to sit semi-comfortably for 30 minutes in a 182 with the student attached AND be close to being in weight and balance.

I'm guessing you've never been in a plane crash/incident either. After you hit the ground without power and the plane is bent up its hard enough to get the seatbelt routed through your harness off, much less a student's harness connected to you. That same student who is flailing around trying to get the hell out of the plane now that he survived the crash landing.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just talking from my personal experience.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davegresh 0]

Nope. never done tandems out of a 182 or 206, and i'm quite happy about that. They are common jumpships in the UK though, and i've seen 206's loaded with 2 tandem pairs plus one other jumper and it seems to work. Don't know if you'd call it comfortable.

I've never been in a plane crash either, which i'm also quite happy about.
I guess its just different perspectives. We are taught from day one that the student should be attached at all times, and it seems strange to be sat in a plane without them attached. I prefer being hooked up because it means i could get out of an aircraft with no hesitation if i had too. Likewise, if i was going to have to crash land, at least i have the option (if i have enough time) of unhooking them if i wanted too.

[AggieDave 6]

It is different perspectives and training ideals. My outlook is that if you had enough time to unhook your student and get them in a seatbelt during an A/C malfunction, you were probably high enough to leave and should have.

Beyond that we're really discussing our SOP in regards to something that is unlikely but could happen. Some of us our bound by our organization's regulations although some of us are not. My life inside and outside of skydiving has taught me that there are more then one way to accomplish a given task. Which ever way you choose, practice it and have a plan (a simple plan) ready to go. Anything less will slow your reaction and prevent any sort of proper action from being successfully achieved.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[camamel 0]

I am sorry but either you don't know what you're talking about or you don't understand.
When a plane crash on take off you don't have time to undo 4 hooks and prepare your passenger and yourself.

No WAY

Are-we on the same planet?

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[camamel 0]

Yes some skydivers shound't be TI,TIE or DZO.
Some skydivers should stay away from instructor rating.
I agree with you my friend.

Richard

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[tsalnukt 1]

This is something that the BPA should really examine and maybe rethink. Just 'cause you are taught something from day one, doesn't make it right. If the plane is going to crash, it's going to be on take-off...usually shortly after take-off, and by the time you know it's going to crash, it's gonna be too late for you to really do anything. If something happens at an altitude safe enough for you to get out of the plane....You can get hooked UP a lot faster than you can un-hooked. If you don't believe me....try it. It never hurts to practice your emergency procedures....For TI's this includes airplane emergencies.
Straddle benches are the way to go for tandems. It makes everything easier...getting hooked-up, exiting, the ride to altitude, talking to your passenger...everything. Sliding the bottom of a tandem rig down the floor with seatbelts/restraints hanging all over the place and sucks and has caused more than a few bad things to happens to tandems. It's all about safety. If you can eliminate or reduce somethings that you have to be "really careful" about in the plane then you are going to increase your chances for survival. I've done a lot of tandems from a lot of different planes with a lot of diffrent set-ups. If you can think of it I have seen it. Mostly from careless TI's but sometimes things happen. Straddle benches are the way to go.

Sorry about the little tangent...I guess the bottom line is Don't hook up the tandem student until you are high enough to get out of the plane.

[pete2005 0]

Thanx to all for sharing Yours opinions and experiences.Easy looking question but many answers,however most of things we sort it out.Lets make skydiving safer.
BS

[hairymango 0]

Just because it hasnt happened in the Uk doesnt mean that it never will. I dont see any point in hooking up a tandem passenger when you wont be exiting the aircraft at that given altitude. The fatalities in Australia just highlight this situation. I would rather my passenger have a chance of survial than by attached to an unconcious/dead body in a plane that could be on fire/under water etc.
Wouldnt expect the BPA to do anything about this because they are a backwards organisation.

[davegresh 0]

All interesting opinions. I'm a little suprised people see this as such a cut and dried decision, as we are talking about crash landings which by their nature must be fairly unpredictable. And we are then talking about a crash landing where the TM is disabled, but the passenger is able and needs to get out fairly quickly.

Maybe the BPA's approach takes into account that we all have to wear helmets, which may affect the chances of the TM becoming disabled, and we all carry hook knives, which may make it easier to get out of seat belts etc.

One thing i like about the BPA is that they tend to be very cautious about changing things that work unless there is a good reason to. Apart from the Australian incident mentioned previously, has there been other incidents where the situation was made worse by the student and TM being attached during takeoff?

One thing i have found unusual at some (USPA) DZ's is seeing how they load the bigger aircraft, especially tailgates like Skyvans. I've seen the students on one side of the plane (with seatbelts), and the TM's 6feet away on the other, and they stay that way until just before exit. To me, that looks the worst of both worlds. If you crash land after takeoff, the TM won't be in a position to help the student (assuming they are able to). And if you have a problem above exit altitude, you've got to get over to the student before you can hook them up and get out. Not saying this is wrong, as these people have more experience than i have, just curious what people think?

[tinay 0]

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Wouldnt expect the BPA to do anything about this because they are a backwards organisation.

Obviously with 1300 jumps you'd know all about backwards organisations, perhaps you should carry out a bit of research and check the various country's safety records. The US hasn't got a great record and with low jump know it alls like you, no wonder.