tandems before funjumpers

[tsalnukt 1]

Just curious. What are people's view on putting the tandem out at a lower altitude and then taking the fun jumpers all the way to the top? After the "connect or not connect" thread, I was thinking about what if there is an a/c emergency and people had to get out? If funjumpers are closer to the door with their gear on they can just get out and in that time the tandems have time to quickly tighten and brief and go. I don't think that I would want to be a funjumper waitng for the tandems to try and open the door and sort everything out.

Just curious....what's the concencus?????

[diablopilot 2]

You do remember that you need to wait for the pilot's command to exit, right?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tdog 0]

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You do remember that you need to wait for the pilot's command to exit, right?

Can I assume when he yells "oh &&&&" over and over again, after the wing fell off, that I have an invite to leave.

(I just thought I would hijack the thread on the third post as much as you did on the second post).

To the question at hand... Out of pure self preservation, I would want to be closer to the door - and I think a bunch of fun jumpers could bail quicker than tandems - so a pure "souls saved" equation says put fun jumpers near the door.

However, I think the odds are statistically insignificant in the big picture. The same DZ could offer detailed canopy classes and save more souls from injury or worse over the life of the DZ. One is a sure bet, the other is a far fetched "what if", where the TMs athleticism probably has more to do with it.

My bigger fear with tandems getting out low - is they open high - and unless the TMs and pilot are perfect at their procedures, you could have fun jumpers opening in the canopy flying of the tandems... I would not want to be part of it.

[diablopilot 2]

The responsibility to avoid the open tandems at a lower altitude lies with the pilot and jumpers getting out higher.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tsalnukt 1]

Yes....not my first day on the playground......

Couple of years ago we had an engine out (twin otter) at about 9000', Just when you are getting ready to hook-up passengers and the pilot said "get out". Everything went nice and smooth and everyone got out orderly and without any chaos. It was perfect timing to get my pax strapped on and briefed as we are sliding closer to the door. (we use straddle benches which does make a world of difference) Over the years I have been at place where the DZO thinks they're saving time by putting out the tandems at 10.500 and taking the fun jumpers the rest of the way up. I got to thinking what if there were a bunch of tandems on the floor by the door and we had an engine out at 6000'? Granted it's not a horrible situation with one good engine still but what if the pilot really wanted the people out. I think that it would take longer to "evacuate the plane than it would if the fun jumpers were by the door. Sometimes time is critical.

By the same token...What if there was an a/c emergency at an altitude where you wouldn't get out with a tandem but the fun jumpers could. Now the fun jumpers have to climb over and around the tandems and now you have a huge shift in CG. Not exactly what the pilot would want in an already hectic situation.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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The responsibility to avoid the open tandems at a lower altitude lies with the pilot and jumpers getting out higher.

And the responsibility to keep the passenger from a situation where the other jumpers can kill him if they don't do what they should, is mine.

[TheCaptain 2]

Safety wise it makes the most sense to have tandems get out after fun jumpers. The time it takes for the other jumpers to get out a tandem instructor should be able to get hooked to the student(if they are low enough to not have started hooking up). Also tandems openning altitude is higher and usually the canopies take longer to open.
Let us not forget the money side of this (tandem and students make up the larger part of the financial side for the DZ so if anyone should get out lower it should be the fun jumpers).
Kirk

[tsalnukt 1]

Does anyone think that it really saves anytime on loads, (besides if the TM's are doing back to backs) The theory, as it was explained to me...By lightening up the plane it will climb quicker the rest of the way to altitude thus more loads in one day and we can get more students jumped.

Has anyone found this to be true or is it another crazy idea that DZO's sometimes think of to try an do more tandems?

[CReWGEEK 1]

Personally, I would't do tandems at a dz where it was up to a load of jumpers getting out after me to avoid me. As andrew said, it is up to us to protect our passenger, I would't be doing my job in this case.

[diablopilot 2]

No jumping at multi-jumpship operations then?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[CReWGEEK 1]

I have gone through the thread, my take was we were talking about one plane.

[diablopilot 2]

The problem is the same.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I am willing to jump at an operation that requires the pilot to insure there is no conflict between tandems and subsequent fun jumpers. If the pilots cannot be trusted to mind overall operational safety then I am at the wrong DZ. Likewise, if normal operations require other customers to take care of that kind of detail, I am at the wrong show.
I have watched operations at Eloy during busy times and have never seen later loads interfere with tandems. That is not to say there is never a tandem canopy in the air from load x when load x+1 exits (or even opens); it just means that the tandems are well under opening height before they get there. I realize this doesn't mean there are never airspace conflicts, but to depend on group #1 from load x+1 to look out the door and refuse to go during the Christmas boogie because there is a tandem canopy in the air just doesn't cut it.

[riggerrob 643]

I am with Andrew on this issue.

The last time I allowed fun jumpers to exit after my tandem, they opened dangerously close to the tandem canopy and the DZO - publicly - chewed me out!
The last time I made the mistake of letting fun jumpers exit after me was a decade ago!

[dragon2 2]

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Personally, I would't do tandems at a dz where it was up to a load of jumpers getting out after me to avoid me. As andrew said, it is up to us to protect our passenger, I would't be doing my job in this case.

At our DZ tandems get out at 9k and those funjumpers not getting out lower (>5k/7k/9k) get out at 12k. By the time we're at 12k the tandems are low enough, if not for some reason, the manifest calls the pilot for a go-around (rarely happens).

If there's only 1 or 2 tandems and no hurry for the instructors/video to get back, the tandems may go to 12k (cheaper than the extra jumprun @ 9k).

We have more 'problems' with CRW getting out at 7k or 9k, it's not very wise to do a 7k crw pass then tandems at 9k of course, nor tandems+crw at 9k followed by 12k freefallers. So we have to compromise there a bit.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[freefalle 0]

I used to work at a drop zone where we took the tandems out at 10.5 and the fun jumpers went to 13.5, we did it because of the volume of tandems we had and at the time they only had one aircraft. taking the tandems out early allowed us to get back down and prepare the next passenger for their load. We frequently did back to backs all day long and it worked out well. I can not recall ever having a close call with a fun jumper but I can see the potential problem.

[tsalnukt 1]

Did any one ever talk about the possibles problems that could happen if there was an a/c emergency with the tandems by the door??? What kind of plane do you have?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Did any one ever talk about the possibles problems that could happen if there was an a/c emergency with the tandems by the door??? What kind of plane do you have?

There seems to be an implication that it is really important for the fun jumpers to get out; the tandems are at a big disadvantage and probably wont make it if it's real bad, but at least the fun jumpers will make it.
When you get right down to it who is more likely to sue the owner, the family of the fun jumper or the family of the tandem passenger?

[tsalnukt 1]

No implications...Just curiosity as to how people do things and why? There are a lot of places that kick the tandems out at lowere altitudes and take the fun-jumpers up higher. I wonder if they think the cons as well as the pros.

I started this b/c I got into a heated discussion about the pro's and cons and putting the tandem out first at a lowere altitude, and the safety issues that go along with a/c emergencies at diffrent altitudes never even crossed his mind. He was only thinkng about money, time saved on back-to-backs, how many more tandems he thinks he can jump in one day, etc. I just wanted to see what others think and why.

Maybe one day we won't have to make decisions on whether or not we'll get sued.

[labrys 0]

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Did any one ever talk about the possibles problems that could happen if there was an a/c emergency with the tandems by the door??? What kind of plane do you have?

I was in a Caravan with an engine out at 5500 and two tandems by the door. It made sense to me for them exit right away (on the pilot's command) and for the three of us that were fun jumping to exit afterwards. It seemed to me that the tandems needed the extra altitude to make a safer exit. We all made it out above 3000.

Owned by Remi #?

[stratostar 5]

Hey there is always extraction if need be.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[diablopilot 2]

Judging by what I see of newer jumpers habits today, getting on the airplane with loose legstraps, never once looking out the door to see where they are until jumprun, having helmets out of reach, etc., I have strong doubts that some would be able to get out of the aircraft before my student and I do in the event of an emergency even if I'm sitting BEHIND them.

If you want to address safety, start there.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tsalnukt 1]

here, here.

Lack of education and dicipline amongst the younger generstion of jumpers needs to be addressed.

[camamel 0]

Like you said in the pass....BINGO.

Richard

PS New jumpers are so use to jump at 13 +, when we ask them to practice an emergency exit at 5 it is like going on a jump off at the world meet!
This is with every body else relaxing in the plane, witch won't be the case in a real emergency!!

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[riggerrob 643]

Good point!
A TI - who has done more jumps over the past month than the junior jumper has done in his entire life - will always be out the door first.