livendive 8 #1 April 21, 2008 So I was reading the ISP this weekend, over and over, and it took until this morning for the meaning of something to sink in. According to the ISP, Category G is where students learn group skydiving skills. These include controlled forward motion (previously in AFF L. 4), intentional backslides, and fall rate control. Paragraph 1 in the Introduction to Category G reads as follows: QuoteFreefall skills in Category G address group skydiving maneuvers. They are outlined here for the discipline of formation skydiving (flat, or belly flying) but can be performed in other orientations with a USPA Coach knowledgeable in those techniques. The same performance and advancement criteria for maneuvering, docking, breakoff, and gaining separation for a safe opening apply, however. Does the fact that I don't advocate teaching students to freefly make me an old fuddy-duddy? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #2 April 21, 2008 No a "traditionalist" is what I was called the other day for having the same frame of mind. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #3 April 21, 2008 QuoteNo a "traditionalist" is what I was called the other day for having the same frame of mind. A "traditionalist" is what they'll call you to your face. A "fuddy duddy" is what they'll call you behind your back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #4 April 21, 2008 For me " FUCKING STONE AGE ASSHOLE" is what they call me behind my back. Matt An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoryJ 0 #5 April 21, 2008 The more up-jumpers in the low numbers that I speak with I try to really instill in them that they should develop a strong basis of belly flying skills before moving onto freeflying because it really does help you get better with the latter discipline faster if you know how to fly your body in general. However, remember: we have a generation of tunnel rats that are coming up. So, they may already be able to turn 10+ points on a two way with their instructor coming out of AFF in the coming years. So, perhaps it is a progressive idea, if we look at what we may be looking at in the near future.Not again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #6 April 21, 2008 Didn't need to read the body of the post and still come up with the right answer. Yes. 50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #7 April 21, 2008 Quote The more up-jumpers in the low numbers that I speak with I try to really instill in them that they should develop a strong basis of belly flying skills before moving onto freeflying because it really does help you get better with the latter discipline faster if you know how to fly your body in general. However, remember: we have a generation of tunnel rats that are coming up. So, they may already be able to turn 10+ points on a two way with their instructor coming out of AFF in the coming years. So, perhaps it is a progressive idea, if we look at what we may be looking at in the near future. I'm not convinced belly flying skills make people "better" freeflyers, but they do make them safer freeflyers. What I tell people is that they should get competent enough on their bellies that they can fly any slot on a several point 4 way and any slot on a 1 or 2 point (freeflown) 8 way. I assume that in developing the skills to do those things, they'll see a few zoo loads, expand their sphere of awareness, develop a respect for moderate closing speeds, and come to recognize their own fallibility. Tunnel rats do present a unique scenario. I'm no expert, but I don't think they can build much of a head of steam in a tunnel, nor learn how to track for their lives when surrounded by idiots. I'm guessing they'll accomplish the above belly tasks much sooner than a non tunnel rat, and still gain some valuable insight in the process. Basically I just want people to have enough experience that they know to be scared when invited on a head-down 6-way with 5-mountain dew types, two of whom have "a couple bad-ass solo sits(!)" under their belt. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #8 April 21, 2008 Quote a head-down 6-way with 5-mountain dew types, two of whom have "a couple bad-ass solo sits(!)" under their belt. these random-fliers tend to weed themselves out anyway, don't they? and for any idiot posting his "cool freefly experiences" aka near death experiences on you-idiot-tube there's a few dozen going WOW! (sorry, had to vent, i feel better now)The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #9 April 22, 2008 a head-down 6-way with 5-mountain dew types, two of whom have "a couple bad-ass solo sits(!)" under their belt. ////////////////////////////////////////// That is some funny shit, but o so true Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #10 April 22, 2008 I have another question ... With all the threads regarding students lack of knowledge, do you think that students understand the increase in danger from RW to FF?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #11 April 22, 2008 ok - i'll bite again: most of the time students see themselves as bullet-proof and invincible. notbecause they are ignorant but because they simply lack the knowledge of what can happen. just remember what your attitude was then and how it has changed in say the last two years. mine has defintely changed dramatically after i realised how many simple rules are broken or ignored on a regular basis - some with dramatic results edit for making more sense in the first sentence The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #12 April 22, 2008 Quoteok - i'll bite again: most of the time students see themselves as bullet-proof and invincible. because they are ignorant but because they simply lack the knowledge of what can happen. just remember what your attitude was then and how it has changed in say the last two years. mine has defintely changed dramatically after i realised how many simple rules are broken or ignored on a regular basis - some with dramatic results I know the student may believe they are bullet-proof and invincible. However, I'm hoping the instructor doesn't believe they are bullet-proof and invincible ... I'm remembering the incident where a student "corked" during a FF jump and paralyzed the instructor."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #13 April 22, 2008 when i'm not doing tandem i work with most of the students on our dropzone. some of the get the concept of safety very easy, some of them will never get it. no matter of who give's the the talk or what is the story being told. some keep this attitude as long as they jump (or survive). as for the original question: once off student status and proud license-holder everybody (well almost everybody) is all too eager to become one of the cool-mofo-badass-crowd calling themselves "freeflyerz" instead of honing some of the basic survival skills learned in basic-rw like maintaining levels, slots & proper separation. unfortunately it is far cooler to participate in a zoo-dive of "freeflyerz" where everbody just manages not to get killed without even knowing how thin the line really is *guess i'm really getting old and grumpy* /rantover/ The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #14 April 22, 2008 QuoteI have another question ... With all the threads regarding students lack of knowledge, do you think that students understand the increase in danger from RW to FF? I try to explain it to them when encouraging that they develop some minimal competence (as opposed to expertise) on their bellies before branching off into FF. I'm sure some get it, some humor me, and some blow me off, but I can't really say how many are in each camp. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #15 April 22, 2008 Around here we encourage the new jumpers to freefly as long as their gear is ok for it. In fact our dz requires a head up ff jump as part of our version of the coach jumps. I think they figure we might as well teach them how to do it safely rather that letting them figure it out for themselves. I guess it's probably different here than at the bigger dzs though. With a single 182 most of the time they are just doing solos filling the extra slot on tandem with video loads. No point in making them lay there on their belly all by themselves the whole time. That gets boring. Freeflying gives them something to work on and we have to do something to keep them interested until they have enough experience to put on a wingsuit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jasonRose 0 #16 April 26, 2008 You "OLD" fuddy-duddy!!! Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #17 April 26, 2008 after some of us said yes, you could apply for a fuddy-duddy number - so that would make you fuddy-duddy 1 The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #18 April 28, 2008 To answer your original question, with just 12 years in the sport you are approaching Fuddy, but you're a long ways from Duddy . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #19 May 1, 2008 I think I have been fuddy for some time now, I should be completely duddy in about 3 more years. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #20 May 2, 2008 Quote after some of us said yes, you could apply for a fuddy-duddy number - so that would make you fuddy-duddy 1 I think this already exists...POPS Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
