AFF/TAMDEM PROGRESSION

[rezz92 0]

What are the pros and cons of the different student programs especially AFF vs. Tamdem Progression?
Thanks Rick

[riggerrob 643]

rezz92,
You just asked a huge question, with dozens of possible answers.
The answer changes depending upon what type of student you are before you arrive at the skydiving school.
If you are a couch potato, then tandem is the only way to go. Frankly, something like a quarter of tandem students should never be allowed to exit an airplane alone.
If you are a Green Beret, Special Forces, Triangle Guy, US Navy SEAL type who is mentally toughened by doing scary things like ultra-marathons and playing with explosives, then AFF will be easy for you. Heck, with half the SEALs, you only need to give them a two-minute briefing, a parachute and chuck them out of the airplane on their own!
The disadvantage of AFF is that students have to absorb huge amounts of information in a short period of time. Some students are quick learners, others are not. The secret to success is finding the program that matches you personal learning style.
The rest of the students are somewhere in between and the ideal training program combines the best features of all the different programs.
These days most skydiving students start out in tandem because it allows them to make that first huge psychological leap without performance anxiety. If they do absolutely nothing, the tandem instructor will keep them alive.
The next step is to do 2 or 3 static-line (or IAD) jumps from 3,000 feet to learn the basics of canopy control.
Then a little wind tunnel time is nice to get the feel of high speed air and master the basics of freefall stability, practice pulls, etc.
Then they should go up with AFF instructors to finish off their training.
Remember that 7 or 8 AFF jumps does not make you a skydiver. It is vital that you follow this training with another dozen jumps - ideally with a coach - to burn those survival skills into longer term memory.
But the above is just my opinion, an opinion based on 24 years of skydiving experience. During those 24 years, I have seen more training methods come and go than I care to remember.
Rob Warner
3700 jumps
2100 tandem jumps
Static-line Instructor since 1982
IAD Instructor since 1983
Rigger since 1984
Tandem Instructor since 1986
Progressive Freefall Instructor since 1990
NCCP Coach 2 since last week

[mountainman 0]

Very well put, Rob. I did AFF and I liked it because it was very intense and there is a lot of pressure on you to perform or repeat a $160 skydive. I do my best under pressure and slack when there is room. So, if you are that type, than you should do something like AFF to keep you on your toes and busy.
This doesn't mean, however, that tandem is time to slack either since you get about 4 tandems (right, Phree) and then you go with one instructor.
The difference to me is that you are in charge of your life from the very beginning with AFF.
Good luck with your decision!! -------------
JumpinDuo.com...news, guestbook, and links.

[rezz92 0]

Maybe some more info will be helpful. Had 10 jumps in early 80's S/L prog. No real problems and nothing has changed much except maybe an extra 10 lbs. Because of all the changes in equip. and training I am trying to get a feel for what would be the most effective.

[freeflir29 0]

"Had 10 jumps in early 80's S/L prog."
Don't waste your time doing tandems. Go find an AFF instructor and get to it!
"and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson

[freeflir29 0]

"NCCP Coach 2 since last week"
Man....what are you? Some kind of rookie!!!! "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson

[riggerrob 643]

Rookie, ha!
I did the Practical Level 2 (1986) and Technical Level 2 (1990) courses a long time ago, but only got around to completing the NCCP Theory Level 2 last week.
It was great fun.
Our Theory Level 2 course included soccer, baseball, gymnastics, water polo, boxing, sailing, lacrosse, track and field coachs. We covered nutrition, first aid, seasonal planning, etc. At first I thought that much of the advice aimed at people who coach children was irrelevant, until I remembered how immature skydivers can be. Ha! Ha!
I did the CSPA Instructor B course back in 1986, CSPA Coach 2 Technical in and 2000.

[Ducky 0]

Well my 2 cents,
As a current AFF student I can alos agree with what the others have said. I know quite a few people i would like to introduce this great sport to. Of those people I have different ideas on what would be best for each of them. i must admit very few would i recomend AFF to. It's not that i think I am better than them and only I can handle the AFF or that I regret it being my choice for my first jump and method of learning.
I just personally think that AFF is most definately not for everyone. If you have the drive and commitment to rewally absorb the info thrown at you and are willing to do alot on your own then AFF is great. I would defiantely recomend it if you have the ability to do the progression in a short amount of time, say 2 or 3 weekends. I do not recomend stretching it out over a great length of time.
All this said, keep in mind I'm just a student myself and have never done a tandem jump.
Good Luck in whatever you choose.
Chris

[riggerrob 643]

When I worked at Hemet, California, 99% of our students started with a tandem jump. Those that wanted to progress did a couple more tandems, with progressively more tasks per jump.
If they wanted to continue skydiving, they spent a day in the classroom and then did a few harness-hold jumps with an AFF Instructor. Most tandem progression students performed well on their first few freefalls.
On the other hand, we had to offer a pure AFF Program to compete with other Southern California DZs. Only 1% of our students did pure AFF with two instructors. Half of the AFF students flopped around the sky on their first jump. It was just too much information for them to absorb in one sitting.
Incidentally, our freefall students performed better if they spent Saturday in the classroom, but did their first freefall on Sunday morning. Letting all that new material sink in overnight calmed their nerves and greatly improved their performance.

[freeflir29 0]

"Rookie, ha!"
I was just joking with you because it was at the bottom of all those other ratings...LOL Kinda like me giving Danny Paige all that shit the other night.....I laughed really hard when he finally got around to asking how many jumps I had......LMAO Of course.....I had other motivation since I also found out he is a USAF Comedy Control Team guy......
"Carb Heat On....Carb Heat On.....Carb Heat On..."-Phil Polstra Clay

[rezz92 0]

Thanks everyone!
Rick

[lazerq3 0]

I did AFP at our DZ and I'm glad I did. It consists of 2 tandems and 5 solos. I tought it was great for me and its a little cheaper than AFF. Didnt have any problems passing each level!! But you gotta do what you gotta do
jason

[Jumperpaula 0]

I took AFF and I'm very glad I did. I had excellent Jumpmasters and made some lifelong friends. But the Home DZ is closed and the New DZ had tandem progression.
I sincerely think that the students coming off AFP are better flyers once of student status, then I was off AFF. On the DZ's AFP program, you are technically still "On Student Status" until you have 20 or so jumps. Yes, it cost more and takes longer, and the end result is a better skydiver.
Jumpers on our DZ who are fresh off "Student Status" are more than ready for 2 - 4 way relative work, SCR's or freefly solo's.
AFF , as mentioned, is a more aggressive learning curve. I appreciate the way the AFP program distributes information and slowly paces the learning process.
Fly Your Slot !

[lummy 4]

I did AFF as well and am glad I did. One thing I was noticing with the TAF was that people would do the 3 tandems and then transition into AFF L4 with only the 1 JM. NOw I am no where near being an expert on this, I am only commenting from my experiences. IT seemed that (at least the TAF L4's ) that I was on the same loads with had LOTS of problems maintaining heading (heard of lots of spins, arching problems, etc) and landings.
As background, I had done 2 tandems before starting my AFF, so I have experienced the differences in flight. IMO, I feel that Tandem progression just gives a false sense of security. Flying a Tandem is just plain different. First off, you have a trained instructor ON YOUR BACK who has a helluva lot of control over flying. You can have absolute horrid body position and still maintain heading. Also, the're a Drogue above your head to keep you belly to earth (and slow you down), and the gear is just plain different, (Bigger, slower, again, someone else who has control over flying the canopy, and yes I know they let you control it). And the worst part (AGAIN IMO) is that once you do the 3 TAF's, you transition RIGHT AWAY to 1 JM.
MY last Opinion is that it would be much easier to learn (and safer) for the student if they transitioned into an AFF L3 where you have the 2 JM's who let go of you.

[riggerrob 643]

lummy,
Many instructors agree with you and prefer to have two instructors on a first freefall, no matter what previous jumping experience the student has.
The decision to go with one instructor is usually an economic decision at a DZ that is short of freefall instructors.