bodypilot1 0 #1 September 20, 2008 Normally I don't post a new thread, but today I have to say I saw the the most worthless input on a students log book that I have ever seen, by an Instructor. The skydive consisted of exit turns, and pull at the designated altitude with canopy control, accoding to this student. And all the Instructor had to write in this guys log book was, "Welcome to my World" Fuckin' Amazing! Any body else ever see something as worthless as this?www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 September 20, 2008 Yes. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VideoFly 0 #3 September 20, 2008 I am not an AFFI, but I am a coach responsible for making log book entrees. When I fill out a log book, I do so for several reasons. First, I like to encourage the student with several positive notes. Second, understanding that there is always room for improvement, I add suggestions as to how the skydiver might improve performance. Third, I write for the next coach so they know what to expect and what they might want to focus on during their jump. I think these are important pieces of information for all involved. It is not helpful to me or the person I am jumping with when I read a log book and all I see are brief positive and sometimes irrelevant notes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #4 September 21, 2008 That kind of stuff has value to me. It helps me see what not to do and reminds me to continue to get better at it. I'm not great at it, but I am getting better as time goes on. The ones I really dislike are the notes saying stuff like: -You screwed the pooch. -That was very bad. -You'll never get it until you do (X, Y, Z). Yes, I've seen all those...verbatim.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gkc1436 3 #5 September 22, 2008 1st L7 flip flop spin flip flop spin do it again good AA good canopy short and sweet by someone with 5000+ student jumps at that time... g Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #6 September 22, 2008 Quote 1st L7 flip flop spin flip flop spin do it again good AA good canopy short and sweet by someone with 5000+ student jumps at that time... g Really? So he gets handed to another AFF-I. The student comes back 3 weeks later and doesn't remeber the jump well, or goes to another dz for training. How was the climb out and solo exit? How was the practice touch? What was causing the spin? And what needs to be done to correct it for the repeat jump? If he was spinning without control, did he redock or do a solo pull in a flip flop spin? Was his landing stand up. No need to write a book, but this is poor log book input, IMO.....www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #7 September 22, 2008 His post has value. It says 5000 jumps doesn't make it good. I believe he was pointing out that fact...and as you indicated, rightfully so! What I'm currently having trouble with is being concise and to the point. My tendency is to write a "book" and capturing too much detail.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #8 September 22, 2008 After the first couple of AFF jumps, I have the students write in their own log books after the debrief. I start out by dictating what they write (which is exactly the same thing I have in the DZs master record of the student), and after a couple of those, I have them do it themselves, I'll read over it and add/change anything that would be important for the next instructor to know. I do this for two reasons... first, I have deplorable handwriting, so the best notes in the world are useless if they are illegable Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #9 September 22, 2008 ... first, I have deplorable handwriting, ............................................................... Maybe you should become a doctor? Tee Hee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmarshall234 14 #10 September 22, 2008 That just tells me the poor quality of instruction and egocentric attitude is evident in log book entries as well. Doesn't surprise me. There are some really good intructors and some really bad instructors out there and you and I have worked with them both, Ed. It seems to me, making yourself directly available to the student population like you've done is the way to go. That way, you succeed or fail based on your own reputation. Which is in turn, based on your quality of work. Robert Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gkc1436 3 #11 September 22, 2008 One would have to read the previous entries to understand the context of this entry, this was actually my second L7 (my bad) she actually wanted to write (WTF was that about) humor considering my previous jumps.... >So he gets handed to another AFF-I. The student comes back 3 weeks later and doesn't remeber the jump well, or goes to another dz for training. wasn't going to happen, i had the same instructor from L3 thru L7's and she knew who i was and where i was going. >How was the climb out and solo exit that was covered on L5-L6, solo exit's on both and both good, hence no mention.... >How was the practice touch? On a L7???? >What was causing the spin? And what needs to be done to correct it for the repeat jump? Covered in de-briefing, student(me)knew what happened & why, beside's....already had an appointment for the following weekend with the same AFFI >Was his landing stand up. again, reading previous entries would help here... stand up's lvl 2-6 standup's in pea's 4-6, no radio assistance after L4 >No need to write a book, but this is poor log book input, Considering i have read 3 page entries from instructors that do nothing but belittle the student and his abilities< I offer this advice Keep it simple, understandable, and end it on a positive note, the student will want to show it to his friends dont let the skygod attitude intrude on something that should be a learning experience for both of you AND read all the entries.....dont pass judgement on just one entry, history is everything g Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #12 September 22, 2008 Quotewasn't going to happen, i had the same instructor from L3 thru L7's and she knew who i was and where i was going. Why would an instructor assume that they will be the students only in instructor they jump with? Though I teach privately, and take my students through all the levels until I sign them off for solo, I still write in the log book as though another instructor were taking them on their next jump. Quotethat was covered on L5-L6, solo exit's on both and both good, hence no mention.... So your saying after you do 2 good exits, a student will always do a great exit, so there is no need to write how the exit was? Quote>How was the practice touch? On a L7???? Sure, why not? Quote>What was causing the spin? And what needs to be done to correct it for the repeat jump? Covered in de-briefing, student(me)knew what happened & why, beside's....already had an appointment for the following weekend with the same AFFI Again, why assume they are not going to jump with another instructor? Quote>Was his landing stand up. again, reading previous entries would help here... stand up's lvl 2-6 standup's in pea's 4-6, no radio assistance after L4 I know, they always do perfect landing after they do a couple of good ones....... QuoteConsidering i have read 3 page entries from instructors that do nothing but belittle the student and his abilities< I offer this advice There should be no belittling in any log book entry QuoteKeep it simple, understandable, and end it on a positive note, the student will want to show it to his friends dont let the skygod attitude intrude on something that should be a learning experience for both of you AND read all the entries.....dont pass judgement on just one entry, history is everything A Sky God entry is "Welcome to my world", short worthless notes that ONLY that AFF-I can understand is lazy and unproductive to the student.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #13 September 22, 2008 QuoteQuote>How was the practice touch? On a L7???? Sure, why not? +1 I did practice touches each time I got a new rig when I was a student (actually any time I get a new rig). It just happened more often as a student for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #14 September 22, 2008 QuoteAfter the first couple of AFF jumps, I have the students write in their own log books after the debrief. I start out by dictating what they write (which is exactly the same thing I have in the DZs master record of the student), and after a couple of those, I have them do it themselves, I'll read over it and add/change anything that would be important for the next instructor to know.Quote Terrific approach. That's the way I do it too, and it's the way my instructors handled my logbook way back in the '80's. The jump really belongs to the student, and so do the stories. I like to let them take charge of logbook entries after a few jumps, as long as the reports are accurate and will assist the next instructor. That helps both of us to identify weaknesses and strengths, and to establish a forward plan that makes sense to the student. Plus, it's way better for the student to read his own story and own handwriting 1,000 jumps later. My only real exception to this approach is when a jump involves a whole bunch of sign off matters that requires an instructor signature. Then I do the entry so the specifics are clear for all eternity. Otherwise, I like them to tell the story.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #15 September 22, 2008 Thanks Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #16 September 22, 2008 Usually I am a bit of a novelist for the first few jumps (up to the Cat D). Once we move on passed the Cat "D", I have them write thier commnets first, I do explain to them that we will be doing this so as not to catch them off guard. I also will go to the next instructor they are to jump with, or if I don't know who that is the S&TA and Chief Instructor, to pass on my impressions and what I saw as weekness' and streangth's. I figure that way no one is left guessing "What the Hell did Matt mean here?" I do not have the neatest hand writing but do try to slow down and make it "deciferable". Matt An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites azureriders 0 #17 September 23, 2008 Quotebodypilot1: Any body else ever see something as worthless as this? Had a student with ~20 jumps stop by, made a coach jump during which she blowed the hard deck so her coach recommended she jump with an AFF-I. Going through her log book before I was to make this next jump with her, I found her first seven jumps loged as: AFF-1, AFF-2......., AFF-7, with signatures but not a word more, no clear, no repeat, no nothing. After these she had jumped in a variety of places and it was obvious which jumps were logged at her local DZ and which ones were not. Upon questioning the coach (from the previous jump) and manifest girl, I learned that they did indeed verify the Instructor with the USPA and even called her to verify the log book. They said she acted as if it were no big deal. Quoteperegrinerose: I thought I made up this policy all by myself One of my Instructors did this, I do it with some students and yes, it does work very well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #18 September 23, 2008 Quote I found her first seven jumps loged as: AFF-1, AFF-2......., AFF-7, with signatures but not a word more, no clear, no repeat, no nothing. After these she had jumped in a variety of places and it was obvious which jumps were logged at her local DZ and which ones were not. Upon questioning the coach (from the previous jump) and manifest girl, I learned that they did indeed verify the Instructor with the USPA and even called her to verify the log book. They said she acted as if it were no big deal. Worthless....www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Foggy 0 #19 September 23, 2008 I used to get GATW and the occasional VGATW despite having a serious spin problem during my student progression. Didnt mean a thing to me then and less so now. I found the SkydiveU debrief process the best way to get the information out and then have the student put it on the page (another handwriting issue). I wanted them to learn how to analyze the skydive for good stuff and the "areas of improvement" for that jump and future skydives. Foggy No longer a rating holder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #20 September 23, 2008 My logbook. AFF1-Good exit, pulled on time AFF2-nice exit AFF3-good exit AFF4-Exit solid, nice landing AFF7-nice unstable exit. Welcome to the sky! I skipped two jumps because I did turns on AFF3. Paper logbook mostly useless, IMO. I did put my own notes in. I like writing in student's books when I'm part of their jumps. My e-logbook has for some interesting reading. If I ever burn in Ed...ask if you can read my E-log. you're in there too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #21 September 23, 2008 Quote If I ever burn in Ed...ask if you can read my E-log. you're in there too. Shit, I want to read it before that, and bull shit over a bottle of wine, Buddy. Your instructors input was worthles though, you right. www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gkc1436 3 #22 September 23, 2008 >Sure, why not? Pulling was never a problem, finding the handle was never a problem, the AFFI knew that, maybe because this was her 6th jump with me...... >Again, why assume they are not going to jump with another instructor? umm.......because i wasnt.......comfort factor mostly >I know, they always do perfect landing after they do a couple of good ones....... actually, students that prove themselves under canopy should be weened off radio as soon as possible. learning to trust/rely on yourself without outside input is one of the big unwritten TLO's in AFF. wouldnt you agree? Beside's if you teach long enough, you will come across different degrees of "naturals" in different areas. sometimes canopy skills are there early, sometimes freefall skills come easy, you cant teach everyone at the same speed or with the same method >short worthless notes that ONLY that AFF-I can understand is lazy and unproductive to the student. so...good door, fix the feet......is bad? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #23 September 24, 2008 Quoteactually, students that prove themselves under canopy should be weened off radio as soon as possible. learning to trust/rely on yourself without outside input is one of the big unwritten TLO's in AFF. wouldnt you agree? Actually I never use radios for my private students. The 2 working tandems allows them canopy control and input if needed. What I meant was, how ever the student lands, good or bad, it should be noted in the log book, on every jump. Quotegood door, fix the feet......is bad? What is the correct fix for the feet? That is what should be noted.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #24 September 24, 2008 QuoteActually I never use radios for my private students. I am overjoyed to hear that. I would run my own program the same way.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerm 0 #25 October 4, 2008 Quote>Sure, why not? Pulling was never a problem, finding the handle was never a problem, the AFFI knew that, maybe because this was her 6th jump with me...... hmm, any jump my hands aren't encumbered i do a practice touch. I've never had a problem pulling either, but it's good to know things are where i left them now that there's a lot of wind. Quote >Again, why assume they are not going to jump with another instructor? umm.......because i wasnt.......comfort factor mostly plausible scenerios that could change this: instructor is sick next time you go to jump instructor gets fired dz closes you break your leg mid-week and are out till next season and the instructor no longer works there your job relocates you instructor quits the sport or flees the country or gets injured or worse depending on the dz, some of those are less likely, but they've all happened at one point or another. My girlfriend's AFF instructor went in on a tandem midway through her student training, so yes, shit DOES happen. It's very likely that the instructor is going to go do something stupid like cross the street or huck themselves out of an airplane before jumping with you again. Giving yo a good record of your jump is the responsible thing to do. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
peregrinerose 0 #15 September 22, 2008 Thanks Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #16 September 22, 2008 Usually I am a bit of a novelist for the first few jumps (up to the Cat D). Once we move on passed the Cat "D", I have them write thier commnets first, I do explain to them that we will be doing this so as not to catch them off guard. I also will go to the next instructor they are to jump with, or if I don't know who that is the S&TA and Chief Instructor, to pass on my impressions and what I saw as weekness' and streangth's. I figure that way no one is left guessing "What the Hell did Matt mean here?" I do not have the neatest hand writing but do try to slow down and make it "deciferable". Matt An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #17 September 23, 2008 Quotebodypilot1: Any body else ever see something as worthless as this? Had a student with ~20 jumps stop by, made a coach jump during which she blowed the hard deck so her coach recommended she jump with an AFF-I. Going through her log book before I was to make this next jump with her, I found her first seven jumps loged as: AFF-1, AFF-2......., AFF-7, with signatures but not a word more, no clear, no repeat, no nothing. After these she had jumped in a variety of places and it was obvious which jumps were logged at her local DZ and which ones were not. Upon questioning the coach (from the previous jump) and manifest girl, I learned that they did indeed verify the Instructor with the USPA and even called her to verify the log book. They said she acted as if it were no big deal. Quoteperegrinerose: I thought I made up this policy all by myself One of my Instructors did this, I do it with some students and yes, it does work very well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #18 September 23, 2008 Quote I found her first seven jumps loged as: AFF-1, AFF-2......., AFF-7, with signatures but not a word more, no clear, no repeat, no nothing. After these she had jumped in a variety of places and it was obvious which jumps were logged at her local DZ and which ones were not. Upon questioning the coach (from the previous jump) and manifest girl, I learned that they did indeed verify the Instructor with the USPA and even called her to verify the log book. They said she acted as if it were no big deal. Worthless....www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foggy 0 #19 September 23, 2008 I used to get GATW and the occasional VGATW despite having a serious spin problem during my student progression. Didnt mean a thing to me then and less so now. I found the SkydiveU debrief process the best way to get the information out and then have the student put it on the page (another handwriting issue). I wanted them to learn how to analyze the skydive for good stuff and the "areas of improvement" for that jump and future skydives. Foggy No longer a rating holder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #20 September 23, 2008 My logbook. AFF1-Good exit, pulled on time AFF2-nice exit AFF3-good exit AFF4-Exit solid, nice landing AFF7-nice unstable exit. Welcome to the sky! I skipped two jumps because I did turns on AFF3. Paper logbook mostly useless, IMO. I did put my own notes in. I like writing in student's books when I'm part of their jumps. My e-logbook has for some interesting reading. If I ever burn in Ed...ask if you can read my E-log. you're in there too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #21 September 23, 2008 Quote If I ever burn in Ed...ask if you can read my E-log. you're in there too. Shit, I want to read it before that, and bull shit over a bottle of wine, Buddy. Your instructors input was worthles though, you right. www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gkc1436 3 #22 September 23, 2008 >Sure, why not? Pulling was never a problem, finding the handle was never a problem, the AFFI knew that, maybe because this was her 6th jump with me...... >Again, why assume they are not going to jump with another instructor? umm.......because i wasnt.......comfort factor mostly >I know, they always do perfect landing after they do a couple of good ones....... actually, students that prove themselves under canopy should be weened off radio as soon as possible. learning to trust/rely on yourself without outside input is one of the big unwritten TLO's in AFF. wouldnt you agree? Beside's if you teach long enough, you will come across different degrees of "naturals" in different areas. sometimes canopy skills are there early, sometimes freefall skills come easy, you cant teach everyone at the same speed or with the same method >short worthless notes that ONLY that AFF-I can understand is lazy and unproductive to the student. so...good door, fix the feet......is bad? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #23 September 24, 2008 Quoteactually, students that prove themselves under canopy should be weened off radio as soon as possible. learning to trust/rely on yourself without outside input is one of the big unwritten TLO's in AFF. wouldnt you agree? Actually I never use radios for my private students. The 2 working tandems allows them canopy control and input if needed. What I meant was, how ever the student lands, good or bad, it should be noted in the log book, on every jump. Quotegood door, fix the feet......is bad? What is the correct fix for the feet? That is what should be noted.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #24 September 24, 2008 QuoteActually I never use radios for my private students. I am overjoyed to hear that. I would run my own program the same way.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #25 October 4, 2008 Quote>Sure, why not? Pulling was never a problem, finding the handle was never a problem, the AFFI knew that, maybe because this was her 6th jump with me...... hmm, any jump my hands aren't encumbered i do a practice touch. I've never had a problem pulling either, but it's good to know things are where i left them now that there's a lot of wind. Quote >Again, why assume they are not going to jump with another instructor? umm.......because i wasnt.......comfort factor mostly plausible scenerios that could change this: instructor is sick next time you go to jump instructor gets fired dz closes you break your leg mid-week and are out till next season and the instructor no longer works there your job relocates you instructor quits the sport or flees the country or gets injured or worse depending on the dz, some of those are less likely, but they've all happened at one point or another. My girlfriend's AFF instructor went in on a tandem midway through her student training, so yes, shit DOES happen. It's very likely that the instructor is going to go do something stupid like cross the street or huck themselves out of an airplane before jumping with you again. Giving yo a good record of your jump is the responsible thing to do. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
