flipper 0 #1 October 21, 2008 Hi Can instructors who use hand cam during tandem jumps maybe help out with the following questions .. How many jumps have you done with it and what problems have you come across using it What advice / guidance does your governing body offer on the subject ( if any ) and finally What level of expierence level do you think a TI should have before use Cheers Flipper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton2 0 #2 October 21, 2008 QuoteHi Can instructors who use hand cam during tandem jumps maybe help out with the following questions .. How many jumps have you done with it and what problems have you come across using it What advice / guidance does your governing body offer on the subject ( if any ) and finally What level of expierence level do you think a TI should have before use Cheers Flipper Read the guidelines below, personnaly I would recommend 100tandem in the last 12 months: http://www.waycool.com.au/phpBBindex.htm Have approx 75HC jumps now (±1150tandems): My experience: - First,second and thirth prio is YOU ARE TANDEMMASTER. The video is extra. A tandemjump is not just another jump - I use a HC5/waycool with a .25lens, not the smallest camera, but stable in freefall and very nice footage (You can make 10x15cm (4x6in) prints in nice quality) - Keep the camera away from the pax during deployment. It is easy to hit the passenger with the camera. - Learn to fly with your legs as you have 1 arm less to fly. - Look at youtube, some good and bad examples can be found there (I also have a couple of videos in youtube and here in dropzone.com search for "skydive grefrath") - Take some jumps to find the ideal camera positions - When the pax does not cooperate, the video sometimes does not work out. - Find a fixed routine for every video (saves edit time) - Do not compete with outside video. It's a different product. My DZ has inside and outside video without stress in the team. HAVE FUNUsing your droque to gain stability is a bad habid. . . Also in case you jump a sport rig!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheCaptain 2 #3 October 21, 2008 How many jumps have you done with it and what problems have you come across using it I have about 50 paid handy cam videos and about 70 total handy cam videos. I would say that the exit shot takes the longest to get good at (and learning to fly the exit when it goes less than prefect and get usable video footage). First off just finding a comfortable way to leave the plane can take awhile to figure out depending on the plane. An otter is pretty easy as the standard poised exit works great, a Caravan the seated exit works fine but just figuring out body and hand placement does take time. Prior to shooting any handy cam I spent about 15 to 20 tandems experimenting with body position and hand placement in the door (realizing your left hand will not be used for the exit but for the video exit shot). As far as a Censna 182, I have not been there yet so I am not sure. Also prior to using handycam I used the 15 to 20 tandems that I worked out the exit to get use to flying with my left hand held out approx. where it would be with the glove on (this way you safely work out flying the person without one hand) Also getting really good footage of landing pattern/landing with minimumal side of head/riser shots, takes awhile too (hand position is extremely hard to get use too, as your wrist is bent to almost a 90° and your hand is turned so the camrea view is forward of you, atleast in full glide) What advice / guidance does your governing body offer on the subject ( if any ) This year was the first year our DZ had handycam, we had a couple of highly experienced handycam tandem instructors leading our program. 1. We had to do several solo jumps with the glove on just to get use to it being there (just done with our sport rigs) 2. Next, once approved by the leader of our handycam op. we took an experienced jumper for a tandem. We were told concentrate on the skydive and not to worry about the exit shot. 3. Again after review if we were OK’d to continue we could start practicing with live tandem students. Once again, exit shot comes second to a stable exit. 4. These video’s were reviewed and critiqued until the videos hit the quality that our DZ wanted. and finally What level of expierence level do you think a TI should have before us I would say the criteria for TI would be a minimum of 500 tandems plus and 100 in the last year. It is most important that every step of the way the instructor feels comfortable with that step before going on. I would stress that doing a bunch of tandems without the glove but working on exit/flying not having your left hand to fly with will help the process greatly.Kirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #4 October 21, 2008 2500 tandems before I tried handy-cam. Did another 600 jumps with handy-cam. Back then CSPA had no guidelines for handy-cam - because it was too new. Now CSPA still has no guidelines, probably because of a low (zero) fatality rate. Canadian /TIs followed Australian guidelines for handy-cam, but you have to remember that APF guidelines tell you more about Australian politics, than safe practices. For example, the first pre-level (500 jumps) was written in an effort to keep APF at arm's length (e.g. set a standard so high APF would never challenge it). Later on Australians concluded that 100 tandem jumps in the past year was enough. Let's face it, by one hundred tandems, you have either mastered the basics or you haven't. A million more tandems will not grow you enough brain cells to do handy-cam. But there are some other, vaguer pre-levels ... because some TIs will never be bright enough to jump handy-cam safely. For example, can you do 9 exits out of 10 stable ... despite badly flailing students? Can you remember that pulling handles in the correct sequence is more important than any video footage? Can you remember to film the student from a variety of angles in freefall? Can you land softly - consistently - even with the weird left wrist contortions required by handy-cam? Problems? ... Luddites! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #5 October 21, 2008 "As far as a Cessna 182, I have not been there yet so I am not sure." .......................................................................... For most Cessnas (except U206, 208 and 400 series) start by sitting with your back against the co-pilot's instrument panel. Camera hand on top of door frame until pilot opens door. Swing camera hand out and grab strut to stabilize. Swing student's feet out onto step, Crouch on step (instructor's left foot on wheel and right foot in aft corner of door), Tilt student's head up, Launch towards tail of airplane. Arms out in front, and feet tucked up your butt for a stable exit. Try to turn 90 degrees right so that airplane stays in frame for three or four seconds. One variation involves the instructor keeping his right thigh on the floor and just swinging his right foot out. As long as the instructor's right foot is out, it won't snag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveoc 0 #6 October 22, 2008 Quote"As far as a Cessna 182, I have not been there yet so I am not sure." .......................................................................... For most Cessnas (except U206, 208 and 400 series) start by sitting with your back against the co-pilot's instrument panel. Camera hand on top of door frame until pilot opens door. Swing camera hand out and grab strut to stabilize. Swing student's feet out onto step, Crouch on step (instructor's left foot on wheel and right foot in aft corner of door), Tilt student's head up, Launch towards tail of airplane. Arms out in front, and feet tucked up your butt for a stable exit. Try to turn 90 degrees right so that airplane stays in frame for three or four seconds. One variation involves the instructor keeping his right thigh on the floor and just swinging his right foot out. As long as the instructor's right foot is out, it won't snag. I like this too...except I stick my legs down for the back layout exit. The describe technique get the cleanest pre exit footage as well. I like the shot when I grab the strut and point the camera back at the student. You can see the tail, horizon, ground and students pre exit facials. As soon as the wind hits your legs facing the tail you rotate backward head down...totally clean relative wind angle for the drogue no matter what the student is doing. Best hand cam angle as you dont use your arms for stability so you can film. Can be tough to get used to if youve been taught to dive out RW style which to me is a terrible tandem exit. I can control myself in a backfly position better than I can the wind hitting a fetal tandem student in a dive out. Got to go slow then snap the back loop if you feel them de-arch. Dont amp though. If jumping second I face the rear behing the pilot, then move over, back up and take the position described by Rob. Not the roomiest slot for a big TM though. Im 5-10 150. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #7 October 22, 2008 I'd agree with Rob, by 100 you either have it or you never will. I think I had around 1000 tandems before starting with hand cam, but that's because I had 1000 tandems before I looked into it, etc. I sold the first few videos I did when working out my technique. I've found that I'm constantly evolving my technique as well, with probably 500 hand cam tandems. One thing I figured out quite a while back was that it works better IMO to face away form the sun, and keep the camera in the shade of the tandem pair. That is unless the sun is low on the horizon, and the faces are well lit. I keep my hands down and in front of us for deployment. I don't like grabbing the risers through deployment with the camera on my hand, and it gets cool footage of the canopy opening. I've also started to try and get the student to fly the canopy more, so I can keep my camera hand out of the toggle. Otherwise, I'll fly with only right toggle for a while up high. This was summer of 07, posted by my student, so not cherry picked by me. We had a group of Spaniards here in Kansas, interesting. After opening you'll notice that I'm pointing the camera at the horizon, look closely and you'll see a 360 degree rainbow. Another thing I like to do going out 2nd from a 182 is to stick the camera out the door to film the first pair leaving. I dive, and let the thing flip, still generally have the drogue out within 2 to 4 seconds. http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=L_azF7gTfT8&feature=related I use a glove built by Riggerrob. Things I like about it, is that I can pull out the viewer, and look through the camera in the airplane, or under canopy, or for that matter on the step, if I need to. When down to less than 5 min of tape, the red led flashes, so I have to look through the camera for record/standby. No cam eye on my set up. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #8 October 24, 2008 Variation on Martin's trick ... I usually exit second from Cessnas. I sit with my back against the pilot's seat and lay my camera hand on my left shoulder, pointing the lens towards the door. This allows me to capture the terrified look on the first student's face! After they disappear, I grab the top of the door frame with my camera hand to help pull us towards the door. Once my back is against the co-pilot's instrument panel, I swing my camera hand out, grab the wing strut, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4chewnate 0 #9 October 28, 2008 Off topic a bit but how much do you guys charge for hand cam video? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #10 October 30, 2008 same as outside. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #11 October 30, 2008 QuoteOff topic a bit but how much do you guys charge for hand cam video? Hand cam does not get stills, so less value. We also are motivated to do hand cam as opposed to outside. We're a two man operation, jumping a 182. So, 7 jumps a day with hand cam is 14 tandems with video. 7 with outside is 7 tandems. We charge $50 for hand cam, $85 for outside vid/stills. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton2 0 #12 October 30, 2008 QuoteQuoteOff topic a bit but how much do you guys charge for hand cam video? Hand cam does not get stills, so less value. We also are motivated to do hand cam as opposed to outside. We're a two man operation, jumping a 182. So, 7 jumps a day with hand cam is 14 tandems with video. 7 with outside is 7 tandems. We charge $50 for hand cam, $85 for outside vid/stills. Martin High Definition camera's have 1900x1080pixels for every frame. This can be printed in 4x6inch in a rather good qualityUsing your droque to gain stability is a bad habid. . . Also in case you jump a sport rig!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 October 30, 2008 That's true, but I don't know anyone jumping HD in handcam right now to judge how easy it is to pull stills off like I can on my PC 109. FWIW, I jump a CX7 HD camera on top of my helmet and a 109 on the side. I have two handcam gloves for my PC 109's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ast4711 0 #14 October 30, 2008 QuoteHand cam does not get stills, so less value Not too long ago, I saw somobody in the airplane with a point and shoot still camera and a video camera somehow assembled on his glove.... alex -- www.tandemmaster.net www.skydivegear.de Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rover 11 #15 October 30, 2008 http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=6925 Watch out for this situation.2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 October 30, 2008 I am jumping HD cameras with a Hand cam mount and the stills you can pull from the video are just as bad as they ever were on the old PC series of cameras.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RM1 0 #17 October 31, 2008 Agreed. I jump an hc5 and the HD stills i pull from it are crap. The problem however is not in the camera but the lens. I can pull acceptable stills from the camera with no lens just not with it. Im using the royal .2 by the way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 October 31, 2008 I still find the video pulls are less than the standard I want to sell. The camera takes nice stills in photo mode, but it will only take three of those while in record mode.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton2 0 #19 October 31, 2008 QuoteI still find the video pulls are less than the standard I want to sell. The camera takes nice stills in photo mode, but it will only take three of those while in record mode. I do not agree completely, I have a small photobook located at the manifest desk with 4x6inch prints from my HC5 (+waycool lens) On a regular base I get passengers who did not book video, saw the photos and asked to jump with me because they want these photos too. (Not all TM's jump with handcam at my DZ) I always tell them not to print larger than 4x6in as it is a videocamera. I make the photos in pinnacle studio12 direct from the HDV footage. Not by pressing the photo button during playing the video I Agree that the limiting factor is the low quality lens, but I do not want a big lens on my hand. The deal is I sell the video/DVD and throw in a couple of photos for free or a couple of euros.Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid. . . Also in case you jump a sport rig!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #20 October 31, 2008 Sounds like a good marketing tool. I'd not thought of using them in that way. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #21 November 4, 2008 Quotehttp://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=6925 Watch out for this situation. What does that video have to do with hand cam, other than he got video of it while wearing the camera? Am I supposed to assume that the camera hand somehow caused him to pull the reserve handle on opening? MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rover 11 #22 November 4, 2008 The hand didn't touch the reserve handle. You can see that the handle catches under the TIs arm. The fact the TI had his arm extended forward to film the passengers face IMO contributed to the incident.2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jump249 0 #23 November 6, 2008 what about this one what do you guy think Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton2 0 #25 November 12, 2008 Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid. . . Also in case you jump a sport rig!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
