What would you do???

[D22369 0]

Until you are the Tandem Instructor IN THAT situation, it's not your decision to make.


***

yes it is - you have no right to tell me to not attempt to help a friend in trouble. If that friend waved me off to deploy the reserve that would be his call and I would clear out at that time.

so whats your opinion of the TI that got the drogue around the neck a few years ago- should the cameraman have merely backed off and hoped the cypress fired? cuz he in your opinion had no right to make the decision to help?


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[skydiverek 63]

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so whats your opinion of the TI that got the drogue around the neck a few years ago- should the cameraman have merely backed off and hoped the cypress fired?

There was no AAD on this jump (teh U.K. jump, where a drogue wrapped around TI's neck and made him faint).

[VideoFly 0]

I recently filmed a tandem exit with an instructor that I never worked with before. As he pulled the drogue from the pocket, he went onto his back and held onto the drogue while he attempted to get stable. While he held the drogue, the bridle wrapped completely around both of the student’s legs and as they turned over, the bridle wrapped again around the TI’s and the student’s bodies. At that point I flew in toward the two to assess the situation and waited for a request for assistance, which did not come. I was ready to pull my hook knife if needed, but I waited just to the side in front of the pair. I stayed to the side, but maintained eye contact to avoid a possible trapdoor if a reserve came out. The pair went head down and wrap by wrap; the drogue bridle became untangled. As the TI checked his rig for entanglements, I gave him a thumbs up that he was clear and he gave one back. The rest of the jump went well. When we landed, we debriefed and he told me that he was glad that I didn’t come in to help because he was ready to go to his reserve.

On the student’s video, I faded to a still after the exit and back into the jump after the bridle wrap was clear. That part of the video did not need to go any farther than it did, which was from me to the TI, so he could view it on his own and reflect upon the situation.

I guess it has a lot to do with communication and familiarity between the TI and camera flyer. In this case, the TI wasn’t quite sure what he had going on and not knowing him; I needed to wait to see how he reacted. At that time, we had plenty of altitude to deal with the situation, although if he signaled for assistance, I would have considered being there. However, if I tried to help after his request, I would have flown in low and to the side to avoid being in the way of a deployment of either canopy.

[Para5-0 0]

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If I were the video guy I would have probably cut the drogue so that there is less to throw the reserve into.

Not a goode idea! The tandem pair is falling at a reduced terminal 120-130 or so...If you manage to cut the drogue which would not be very easy I might add, once you get to the kill line the drougue will collapse increasing the pairs speed to tandem terminal.....so before you get through the drogue it will collapse, now they are doing 180 or so with a deflated drogue whipping around becasue it is cut in half.....not a good reserve deployment picture...
Much better odds of the reserve deploying past the INFLATED drougue...at a lower speed.

[pairashooter 0]

Good point. This is why we should have plans for such occasions I guess.

Chris Scaife

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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If I were the video guy I would have probably cut the drogue so that there is less to throw the reserve into.

Not a goode idea! The tandem pair is falling at a reduced terminal 120-130 or so...If you manage to cut the drogue which would not be very easy I might add, once you get to the kill line the drougue will collapse increasing the pairs speed to tandem terminal.....so before you get through the drogue it will collapse, now they are doing 180 or so with a deflated drogue whipping around becasue it is cut in half.....not a good reserve deployment picture...
Much better odds of the reserve deploying past the INFLATED drougue...at a lower speed.

I think you are mistaken. On a Strong system a cut kill line will not kill the drogue; on a Vector style system once the kill line is cut the drogue leaves.

[hookitt 1]

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on a Vector style system once the kill line is cut the drogue leaves.

If the drogue bridle was clear like a normal tandem skydive, even if the kill line was cut or broken with some of the sheath still intact, it wouldn't go anywhere nor would it collapse.

When the drogue release is pulled, then it would leave. The main pin would be pulled leaving the remaining kill line and an open container.


You're not going to be able to cut the sheath anyway.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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on a Vector style system once the kill line is cut the drogue leaves.

If the drogue bridle was clear like a normal tandem skydive, even if the kill line was cut or broken with some of the sheath still intact, it wouldn't go anywhere nor would it collapse.

When the drogue release is pulled, then it would leave. The main pin would be pulled leaving the remaining kill line and an open container.


You're not going to be able to cut the sheath anyway.

Right.

[matt3sa 0]

To all of you that have thousands of skydives and tandem experience that are tearing this guy a new on in the video I would like to share my thoughts.

I just finished my first season doing tandems and all though I may have never wrapped myself in the drogue I certainly had some closer than comfort scenerios especially being a smaller person (5'6) like the person in the video. I think some of you tandem masters should consider what you say before you speak. Maybe try to think back to what it was like after your 10 practice course tandems and then going into the real world fighting a duffus that doesn't follow and of your body position instructions on exit. I think it's harsh to suggest that his rating should be pulled. I would have gone for the reserve earlier but ultimately the job got done and the videographer did a hell of a job staying in contact and in communication with him. Again, reserve deployment after a couple quick tries to clear would have been my choice after signaling for the videographer to clear, however calling him a "dumbass" and stating that he should have had a better exit and deployed the drogue better is ridiculous. I find it hard to believe that you folks haven't ever had any close calls that could have been just like this during your first 1 or 2 seasons. To the people that make these comments, do you really think he didn't WANT and TRY for a smooth exit? I mean, he tucked his arms for a flip maneuver, but I'm sure he didn't plan for the things that happened next.

[riggerrob 643]

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so what's your opinion of the TI that got the drogue around the neck a few years ago- should the cameraman have merely backed off and hoped the cypress fired?

There was no AAD on this jump (the U.K. jump, where a drogue wrapped around TI's neck and made him faint).

........................................................................

Are you referring to the UK incident twenty years ago?
... before Cypres was invented?

In that incident, the videographer (chief instructor with thousands of skydives and multiple ratings) flew in and helped.
IIRC the videographer pulled the reserve ripcord to slow down the problem and the TI woke up under canopy, pulled drogue bridle off of neck and steered reserve to a soft landing.

[riggerrob 643]

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Not being an idiot and having a better exit is what I'd do...but if I was an idiot for a jump and did that I'd go for my hook knife and cut that bitch off.

"

........................................................................

Most plastic hook knives would break long before they cut through two layers of Kevlar webbing (two inches wide) and a fat piece of tubular webbing.

[skydiverek 63]

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Are you referring to the UK incident twenty years ago?
... before Cypres was invented?

In that incident, the videographer (chief instructor with thousands of skydives and multiple ratings) flew in and helped.
IIRC the videographer pulled the reserve ripcord to slow down the problem and the TI woke up under canopy, pulled drogue bridle off of neck and steered reserve to a soft landing.

All correct. This is what I was referring to.

[Kimblair13 0]

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Most plastic hook knives would break long before they cut through two layers of Kevlar webbing (two inches wide) and a fat piece of tubular webbing.

I know of someone that cut a drogue off himself in FF. And then riggers later saying they tested how hard it would be by hanging from one and said that it..."cut like butter".

[hookitt 1]

Interesting. I'll take note. If you try to cut it without the Kevlar under tension and it simply doesn't cut easily.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[riggerrob 643]

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Most plastic hook knives would break long before they cut through two layers of Kevlar webbing (two inches wide) and a fat piece of tubular webbing.

I know of someone that cut a drogue off himself in FF. And then riggers later saying they tested how hard it would be by hanging from one and said that it..."cut like butter".

.....................................................................

That was more of a sarcastic comment about cheap plastic hook knives.

[livendive 8]

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To the people that make these comments, do you really think he didn't WANT and TRY for a smooth exit? I mean, he tucked his arms for a flip maneuver, but I'm sure he didn't plan for the things that happened next.

You should submit that as an example to these guys.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[skydived19006 4]

I'd be interested to know how many TIs here with over 100, or 1000 tandems could honestly say that they have never felt a drogue touch one of their feet. I'm 6'8" tall, so have more working surface than the majority, and I've had instances where I considered the FF stable, and threw just as we started to rotate a bit head down again (note "a bit head down" not roll to back), and felt the drogue touch/hit my foot.

I also remember seeing a video of a TI timing the throw, and the drogue going under the student's leg. Had the student known what was going on, he could have cleared it (not a full hitch like this jump). The video guy considered coming in to clear it, but chose not to. TI waived, and pulled silver with good results.

On this one, I'm sure that had the TI waived, the video guy would have been out of there in a heartbeat (and those hearts I'm sure were beating a bit fast!).

My understand of the system is that if you lose/cut the kill line the drogue does not kill on deployment (vector). If the drogue bridle was cut in half, including the kill line the drogue would stay inflated. My guess is this is why it's called a "kill line", it "kills" the drogue. Loose the center line and the drogue stays inflated after deployment (new style vector drogues). With the old style Vector drogue, if the tubular is cut, then the drogue "goes away" upon release (there are a few strings here)

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[livendive 8]

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I'd be interested to know how many TIs here with over 100, or 1000 tandems could honestly say that they have never felt a drogue touch one of their feet.

I've felt the bridle graze my shin exactly once. I considered it a wholly unpleasant experience unworthy of repeating, so I added a step to my throw. I now reach and grab, pause briefly to ensure no unexpected rotation is starting, then extract and throw. I'd say on average the pause is less than half a second, but on the occasions that I do feel something I don't like, I let go of the drogue handle, fix us, then start over.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[riggerrob 643]

TIs who answer no are either lying or clueless.
Let's face it, we all have good days and bad days.
Students do the dumbest things at the weirdest times.
I vaguely remember drogues brushing my feet a couple of times.

[shaark 0]

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I think you will have a variety of thoughts on this one but to break it into two:
Prevent the problem from the start. Exit and gain stability via flying your body, Tandem 101. I agree the backloop is a very easy stable exit. This was not accomplished for a variety of reasons.

and two Should a video guy try to assist a in air emergency? My thoughts are completely different given the situation, yes it is easy to monday quarterback these things. I think as long as there was some sort of communication the video guy acted on what he felt to be a moral obligation to assist rather than sit back and watch. Problem: a)He prevented a reserve deployment, B) if the TI did deploy the reserve it would or could have been a triple funeral. The communication seemed to be good and once the video guy backed up the TI initiated reserve. i think the video guy did a very nice job attempting to help but with a little knowledge about drouges he would have known they are like lead pipes once out. I am glad this worked out but it emphasises good pre jump ground preps with the video guy....What to do if I have a problem? best answer is get out of my way so I do not have to worry about you and can deal with the issue at hand.
my thoughts anyway.

Many years ago in Canada a tandem pair ended up tangled in the main and reserve. The camera guy tried to clear the mess. Didn't succeed.

At the last, he, seemingly intentionally, emeshed himself in their garbage and pulled his parachute (main, I think) in an attempt to prevent their certain deaths. The extreme load prevented his parachute from inflating. All died.

Sad that the physics of the situation precluded a save, and my utmost admiration for the camera guy, who had to have known that at best he was going to get badly injured.

I agree with Para5-0. Good pre-jump prep, TI with video guy, should be standard. Good communication on the ground, in the aircraft and in freefall is vital, on every tandem jump.

Tanstaafl

[Kylecrick 0]

I'm trying to track down the owner of this footage. Does anyone have any idea of where it comes from? Any lead would be really helpful.

Kyle Crick
kcrick@asylument.com

[dragon2 2]

Why?

ciel bleu,
Saskia