ozzy13 0 #1 January 9, 2009 I was talking to some people and I was getting different views on this. I was wondering what people thought when doing coach jumps or AFF if you wore a camera to help in your teaching process Some people got upset with me for doing this on coach jumps. I would review the jump with them in the debrief. Some people were upset, saying I was taking money out of pockets. I would not give them a copy . It was for education purposes only. Any opinions?Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #2 January 9, 2009 It shouldnt be a problem....if the coach or AFFI brought up a still camera then id say the others had a right to bitch about getting money taken out of their pocket....if the student doesnt receive the video then there is nothing going on right there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #3 January 9, 2009 Personally I do not wear a camera on my head for AFF jumps. If I have to interviene, the last thing I want on my head is a camera. In the case of a spinning student it could injure the student (most importantly), you, or on a lesser scale wreck the camera.. If I need video I use a video guy so I can concentrate on the students safety first. If you as a AFF instructor for one sec. think about getting "video" instead of being where you are supposed to, it may be too late. My two cents. As for coaching and debriefing I am all for it.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #5 January 9, 2009 QuotePersonally I do not wear a camera on my head for AFF jumps. If I have to interviene, the last thing I want on my head is a camera. In the case of a spinning student it could injure the student (most importantly), you, or on a lesser scale wreck the camera.. If I need video I use a video guy so I can concentrate on the students safety first. Wearing a video camera on student jumps is no big deal. I have worn one on virtually every instructional jump in my rather short career (only around 600 instructional jumps) and have made my share of “saves” over the years (spinners, rollovers, tumblers etcetera) and the camera has never once been an issue, hindrance or created any sort of problem whatsoever. In terms of being a fantastic teaching aide it had proven invaluable. I debrief student jumps onto a real time DVD recorder and students are able to take their jumps home to review. It is good for training purposes and promotional purposes as students show their progression to their friends. Not only that, but it has been very helpful in the review of jumps that were with problem students to assist in the development of planning and preparing the best course of action with other instructors. This aspect has benefited my and others instructors I work with in educating and bettering ourselves as solo freefall instructors. I do not wear a cameye or ringsight, just a closed box setup with a PC style camcorder, so no indicator lights or ringsights to create distractions or added snagablilty. I want to have all of my attention on the student in the air, so I just reach back and hit the record button when the red light goes on, if I get the jump fine but I do not concentrate on framing – I fly as if the camera was not there as it is secondary to safety. As for having outside camera or lurkers of any kind in student jumps? I absolutely will not allow lurkers in any circumstance and really prefer not to have outside camera hired either as this has created distractions to the student I am working with in the past and can create added difficulty to an animated combat jump.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #6 January 9, 2009 Ok thanks . My post is really on the money side of this. Some people feel that if I as a coach wear my camera on those jumps its taking money out of their pockets. I feel if the student wants a video of the jump that's fine they can pay for it from the out side. But I like using the video in the debrief and they think if the student doesn't pay then I shouldn't wear it. Its not like im cutting them a DVD or anything. Just using it for the debrief. I caught shit for it.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #7 January 9, 2009 I hope you coach better then your spelling or grammar... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #8 January 9, 2009 QuoteI hope you coach better then your spelling or grammar... You tell me . You taught meNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #9 January 9, 2009 I know many instructors that do the same as you and I think it falls into the to each his own category. I have a ring sight and a metal L bracket so it is more of a personal thing not to. I did not mean to say it shouldnt be done. Your setup is definately more safe to do it than mine for sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #10 January 9, 2009 Jerry its Caught and Taught Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #11 January 9, 2009 Quote Jerry its Caught and Taught Thanks buddieNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #12 January 9, 2009 Not trying to be a dick or anything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #13 January 9, 2009 Quote I know many instructors that do the same as you and I think it falls into the to each his own category. I have a ring sight and a metal L bracket so it is more of a personal thing not to. I did not mean to say it shouldnt be done. Your setup is definately more safe to do it than mine for sure. I have a setup with stills on top and a ring-sight and all that jazz for shooting and another just for students - both half-raks.... Definitely… Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #14 January 10, 2009 That's me too. I have a good setup for tandem video, and a cheap camera on a sidemount for AFF. That camera doesn't have a cameye or ringsight or anything. My video isn't the best because I'm not thinking about framing or anything other than doing what I need to do for the student.. If I was coaching someone and they wanted a "good" video I'd recommend outside video, but mine works well for debriefing purposes.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoryJ 0 #15 January 10, 2009 Now that I finally have my camera on my helmet, I really like taking it along for AFF. When you get down, after the debrief, you can show them EXACTLY what their body was doing. When I take the camera along, it is not to capture the skydive like a video. Hell, it is not even hand cam quality. If their legs are askew, I have it in frame and can show them and see if they can get the mind/body correlation going on in order to help them fix problems with body position as fast as possible. I think the power of a video debrief can be greatly supported in the skydiving community. If they want something to show off to friends and family, outside video is the way to go, but I have seen plenty of students get hooked on geeking a camera and not on taking care of business. If you want to geek the camera, do a tandem or get several dozen jumps under your belt. AFF is not the place for that. Learn, so that you can geek the camera EVEN BETTER once you are A-licensed and beyond.Not again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4chewnate 0 #16 January 10, 2009 Take it from someone who has paid through the nose for my first 50 - 60 jumps. Some times we newer jumpers get the feeling all that anyone cares about, is how much money we can bring to their wallets. I've talked to a friend with lots of years in the sport who only does video (not an AFFI or TI). He doesn't post here but he said that it's no one's business if the AFFI or Coach wants to shoot video for debriefing. Even if he gives the student a copy, he says he could care less. He and I both agree that many people in this sport have become hoars for money and that's all they care about. Tell those who are bitching that if they're going to walk around with their "panties in a bunch" it would be much more comfortable for them to just buy a "thong". But that's just me........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #17 January 10, 2009 I always wear a video camera when I train my private AFF students. It's very slim in the custom fiberglass mount I made on my old BoneHead helmet, so it doesn't interfear with me doing the main objective of being an AFF-I. The wide angel POV provides a great tool for debriefs as well, and I do not charge more for the video. The "taking money out of the pocket" thing is BS. But, if the AFF-I took a still camera on the jump, I'd concider them to be an IDIOT.......www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #18 January 10, 2009 FWIW...YOU are the Instructor or Coach. YOU decide what's best for your student. For those worried about the money...sorry, dude. You have no dog in this hunt. I prefer that there be no outside video on AFF because of the added worry about where the hell is the guy at pull/break-off time. However, I do allow it with known vidiots who I can trust to be out of the way at crunch time. If the student wants to pay for outside video, then I will enlist the efforts of those vidiots or delay the jump until one of them is available. I do not do video on AFF jumps simply because I do not have an appropriate set-up for it. I take my camcorder only on Coach jumps with known entities that I could reasonably expect to NOT to have save-their-ass issues...and even then with trepidation. When I DO take the camera, I tell the student that the skydive is first priority...any video captured is gravy. IMHO, in the big scheme of things, video on AFF and Coach jumps is a good thing...a great teaching/learning tool.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #19 January 10, 2009 Quote prefer not to have outside camera hired either as this has created distractions to the student I am working with in the past and can create added difficulty to an animated combat jump. In that case, you're working with the wrong camera guys. Yet another reason that not just anyone should be doing video work. Any good camera flyer should be in tune with what is happening in the skydive. Not drawing the attention of the student at key moments of the jump is hugely important to shooting AFF video. You may not get a chance to park yourself front and center due to the flow of the dive. Furthermore, while staying clear of the students field of view, a good camera flyer will be framing things so as to illustrate the important parts of the dive. Making sure to film the handle during practice touches and the actual pull can be a big help during a debreif. If you can get the hand signals in there, or catch an angle that highlights a bad body postition, the video becomes that much more valuable. All you have to do is the above, plus fly the light so the picture isn't washed out, plus stay clear of the action, and you're gold. As far as the OP goes, do whatever you want, you're the instructor, and you're in charge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 33 #20 January 10, 2009 QuoteOk thanks . My post is really on the money side of this. Some people feel that if I as a coach wear my camera on those jumps its taking money out of their pockets. I feel if the student wants a video of the jump that's fine they can pay for it from the out side. But I like using the video in the debrief and they think if the student doesn't pay then I shouldn't wear it. Its not like im cutting them a DVD or anything. Just using it for the debrief. I caught shit for it. Good for you. An excellent teaching tool. I'd even give them the video if they wanted it. That, and tell those greedy bastards to "F*** **F"This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 38 #21 January 11, 2009 No one owns the sky and anyone complaining about money being taken out of their pocket is one greedy fuck. C'mon. Someone actually has a beef about a student saving a buck? Get real. Just my 2 cents. DThe brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #22 January 12, 2009 I agree, but is it a new concept that DZ's out there have full time staff that view students as their next car payment walking through the door. IMO these guys/girls are the lowest form of the sport. It gives every instructor a bad name because once a student settles in to the sport and starts to educate himself, he/she learns what these people are all about. The rest of us have to work extra hard to show students we care about what happens to them and the sport. Again, this is not all DZ's but I bet everyone of you know someone who could give a shit less about anything but how many work jumps they get in in one day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #23 January 13, 2009 QuoteSome people were upset, saying I was taking money out of pockets. how absolutely petty ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #24 January 13, 2009 I video every coach jump I do. Helps IMMENSELY. I'm not a very experienced coach, but I definitely see a lot more on video than I do in freefall. So I can give a much better debrief with video than I can without. Also, students really understand what they're doing wrong when they see it. Much more than when they just hear about it. They think their legs were out until they see their heels on their butts on video. And it's really key for tracking. It sure looks different than it feels. As far as the problem you're having with other video guys, that's definitely not a problem at my DZ. I'm the only video guy that regularly shoots (other people's) coach jumps or AFF jumps. We don't shoot those like tandem videos. I don't charge for those videos... just a slot. And nobody's complaining. Except the AFF instructors who hate when I ruin their comfortable ride to altitude in the 182 by taking the 4th slot. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #25 January 13, 2009 Quote...Any good camera flyer should be in tune with what is happening in the skydive.... ...Furthermore, a good camera flyer will be... - staying clear of the students field of view, - framing things so as to illustrate the important parts of the dive. - Making sure to film the handle during practice touches and the actual pull - getting the hand signals in there, or - catching an angle that highlights a bad body postition, the video becomes that much more valuable. All you have to do is the above, plus fly the light so the picture isn't washed out, plus stay clear of the action, and you're gold. Holy buzzards in basket...where do you find a vidiot like that? I'm pretty sure Harry and Norm are staying busy these days and traveling quite a bit.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
