Tail Strike Avoidance

[PeteS 0]

So what you are saying is that the door to your house is meant to be walked through only when it is completely open. Walking through that door when it is in any other position will cause great bodily harm? You can walk through a door part way open, you must know how to negotiate the hazard of the door, frame and threshold. Door frame strikes damage more drunk people the court system can handle. I have done many clear and pull jumps from climbing low tail aircraft with no problems.

[diablopilot 2]

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I know you like to have a black and white attitude on the forums (I would guess in real life as well)

In reality I am a lot less "black and white" in person. It's the liability and risk of being misunderstood in the on-line format that forces my written opinion to be what it is.

Here's my take on this. Jumpers SHOULD be made aware of the appropriate techniques such as exiting low and not launching upward. Sure a Tail strike can happen in a properly configured for jump run side door aircraft of ANY type, HOWEVER it is far more rare of a situation.

The recent incidents are situations where the aircraft was not in a jump run configuration and that information and the proper way to exit was NOT clearly explained to the jumper prior to the load.

When you go to the DZ and buy a jump ticket you are buying a ride to altitude and the opportunity to make a safe exit. Operators/Owners/Pilots who are trying to save a buck by not making the cut are robbing the customer/jumper of that service, and causing them unnecessary danger.

If the DZ/Owner/Operator thinks they are loosing too much money doing a low pass then either up the price or stop doing them. It's just not safe. At all.

So while you are right that it's not 100% the fault of the airplane, I can say it's an unsafe practice. At the BOD meeting and the DZO conference the subject was brought up, many, many DZOs/Operators/Owners/Pilots agree, including some of the best, most respected, and longest around in the business..... a short list: Larry Hill, Mike Mullins, Ray Ferrell, the Farringtons, Todd Spillers, Randy Allison, .....

If the DZ won't give a cut, I ain't jumping there.


And Ed, there are different rules for emergency situations, and we should be training our people to those standards as well ( I know you do.)

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[bodypilot1 0]

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And Ed, there are different rules for emergency situations, and we should be training our people to those standards as well ( I know you do.)

You can bet I do, and in any configuration. I'd never recommend, to any jumper, to do a poised exit on a H&P when the jumper knows the plane will be climbing to a higher altitude after they exit.......
Luckily this miscommunication only turned out to be a badly broken arm, and not a fatality.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[diablopilot 2]

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>NO, it stems from aircraft not being properly configured for exit. Period.

I can think of four tailstrike incidents where the aircraft was properly configured for jump run - and the jumper hit the tail anyway.

And I can think of 3 time that many where it did.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DougH 270]

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>NO, it stems from aircraft not being properly configured for exit. Period.

I can think of four tailstrike incidents where the aircraft was properly configured for jump run - and the jumper hit the tail anyway.

And I can think of 3 time that many where it did.

How many tail strikes can you think of where the leading cause of the accident was a crouched or sitting exit?

I think there are two seperate issues here, you need to seperate them.

1. The safe SOP is for the plane to be in slower level flight for a hop and pop.

I think most would agree here, but having the plane in slow and level flight does not remove all risk of tail strike. You can't argue that it does because we have incidents that prove otherwise. It also is important to point out that in any operation, no matter how well structured, there is a chance that we have deviations from SOP.

2. You should exit the plane in a safe manner that minimizes the risk of tail strike, regardless of the planes configuration.

Here I would argue that a crouched or sitting exit is safer in the sense that it minimizes the risk of tail strike regardless of the plane's jump run configuration. It is an exit position that can have great stability with little practice. And most importantly I think it is an exit that has the most relevance in an emergency situation.

If we are trying to teach students confidence to deal with an emergency exit, lets give them some tools that they can actual use when the shit hits the fan.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 2,990]

>And I can think of 3 time that many where it did.

Agreed. Tailstrikes can be caused by launching too hard upwards, by a failure to configure the aircraft correctly, by a too-high airspeed or by a poor exit location. Naturally, combining several of these will give you the highest chance of a tailstrike - so it's worthwhile to eliminate as many of them as possible on low-tail aircraft.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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You can bet I do, and in any configuration. I'd never recommend, to any jumper, to do a poised exit on a H&P when the jumper knows the plane will be climbing to a higher altitude after they exit.......

CRW comes to mind.

[flyright 0]

The first time I can remember someone really going into the position of the plane on exit was a solo fly away load out of a king air. The pilot was a jumper and new I was inexperienced (50ish jumps) and basically told me he wasn't going to slow down, but just whip a circle and out I go. So he told me, sit in the door and scoot out because the tail will be low and it just kinda never left my head after that.

Beware of Wandering Minions!!!

[fasted3 0]

Good thread. I'm going to practice some emergency exits just for grins.

But what do I know?

[flyright 0]

I see your point, but even during emergency exit practice, the majority of the emphasis by instructors is on who you take command from, which equipment to use at what altitude, poised/diving depending on the senario, arch one thousand two thousand pull, get off line of flight, ect. And this falls into the hop and pops in the coach program as well. Practice for aircraft emergecies is a big plus for those jumps which are skipped at a lot of DZ's (not Raeford, don't assume I meant that). We need to keep this in mind when breifing students and new jumpers and go into more detail about aircraft emergency and the skills it developes for ascending exits. I think a little muscle memory about being aware of the tail of the aircraft would be pretty easy to create if all of us paid a little closure attention to it. Then when we are doing an average hop and pop on an average day with average lack of communication, instead of handles in order used, spot, ready, set, tail strike, it might go handles in order used, spot, check the positioning of the aircraft and airspeed, ooh the tails low, sit down and roll out or exit low kneeling, or whatever, but hopefully not a tail strike. Myabe this would block out something more important, maybe to much info for one briefing, I know how we are taught to teach, but something may also be missing. What do yall feel about this as instructors? Maybe I'm off here.

Beware of Wandering Minions!!!

[ruffrider31 0]

here is a tail strike because of no gear check. Jumper was very lucky and just had a badly brushed leg.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=guestpass&id=64v6k

Tail strike is at 15:15

The plane was on jump run and tail was up.

[jtnesbitt 0]

Since we're comparing the number of strikes against different factors (such as wingsuits, poised exits, climbing exits, etc) i noticed something unusal when comparing tailstrikes vs sex. I can't help but notice many of the strkes are with female jumpers. I foind this unusual since female jumpers are only around 20% of all jumpers while female tailstrikes are close to 60% in the past few years. I am not trying to imply anything just saying the numbers are odd.

Pell City 7/05 - Female
Louisburg 7/07 - Male
Bowling Green - 6/08 - Male
Ritzville 07/08 - Female
Ohio 07/08 - Female
UK 08/08 - Male
Raeford 02/09 - Female

Again, not trying ti imply anything because there are always outside factors to consider however this really intrigues me.

Flame on.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[pchapman 279]

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female jumpers are only around 20% of all jumpers while female tailstrikes are close to 60% in the past few years.

All other things being equal, to get 4 or more incidents out of 7 happening to females, if the proportion of female jumpers is 20%, is only a 3.3% probability.

That's from the cumulative distribution function of the binomial theorem.

I have no stake in this; I was just curious whether the 'odd' numbers seen by jtnesbitt were likely to have occurred due to chance or not.

Since "all else being equal" is never quite true in real life, was there anything else that stuck out in your analysis, JT? Low experience level perhaps?

[fasted3 0]

Lighter exit weight comes to mind.

But what do I know?

[Anta 0]

7 people doesn't really make for reliable statistics

[jtnesbitt 0]

Not really an anaylsis, just really an observation i wanted to throw out there because i was intrigued when i noticed it.

Yes lightweight jumpers did come to mind at first, but at least one of the female tailstrikes was gross pilot error and some of the others the weight wasnt an issue either.

And yes, 7 isn't an appropriate number for an analysis, thats why i said it's an observation. However you have to admit it is a rather unusual one.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[Forsaken1102 0]

i was on the plane when this happened and myself and the rest of the guys on there were watching because on the jump prior the female tumbled away. so as you can see we were anxious to see if it happened again. in my opinion and i am certainly not an expert it seemed a number of things....1 the speed of the aircraft was still pretty fast because obviously the pilot was still trying to gain altitude, the plane was in a jump configuration and two jumpers exited before her....2 she left the plane in a poise exit and jumped upward..something else that really bothers me about this is the jumper had only 75 jumps...75...now why was she jumping without an AAD and why did the coach or the DZ for that matter allow this??? i do know that at this dropzone they do not ask to see any kind of proof of a uspa membership or license.. i have been there several times now and have never been asked..i think this is a matter for concern and should be addressed. anybody could just go up and act like they know what they are doing and put on a rig and jump.

[billvon 2,990]

>now why was she jumping without an AAD and why did the coach or the DZ
>for that matter allow this?

Because a licensed jumper at 75 jumps does not require any of those things. I was JM'ing students when I had just over 100.

>anybody could just go up and act like they know what they are doing and
>put on a rig and jump.

And if they have an A license - there's nothing wrong with that. I'd hope they'd talk to people, and people would talk to them, of course, to point out things like landing directions, hazards etc. But at 75 jumps you are 100% on your own, and expected to be able to make your own decisions.

[Forsaken1102 0]

But thats my point they dont check they dont ask anything. you give them money they put your name on manifest.

[DougH 270]

Mandatory AAD's, RSL's, PFD's, MARD's and bubble sheet scantron exams for every one!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[AFFI 0]

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scantron exams

Put me down for one of those!


No, wait, I thought it said scrotum...

Never mind...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[billvon 2,990]

>they dont check they dont ask anything.

Sorry, I don't believe you. I have never been to a DZ where they didn't ask to see anything and didn't ask you anything before you could manifest. I think you have a bit of an axe to grind here.

[Andy9o8 2]

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female jumpers are only around 20% of all jumpers while female tailstrikes are close to 60% in the past few years.

All other things being equal, to get 4 or more incidents out of 7 happening to females, if the proportion of female jumpers is 20%, is only a 3.3% probability.
That's from the cumulative distribution function of the binomial theorem.
I have no stake in this; I was just curious whether the 'odd' numbers seen by jtnesbitt were likely to have occurred due to chance or not.
Since "all else being equal" is never quite true in real life, was there anything else that stuck out in your analysis, JT? Low experience level perhaps?

Perhaps the added canards act as supplemental lifting bodies.
Just a thought.

[Forsaken1102 0]

see thats just ir i havent either. most places i have ever been to have asked to see everything like reserve pack dates, AADs, licenses. but not there and i think it should be addressed thats why i put it out there.

[BASE469 0]

I've thought about this for several days now and I find your post quite troubling. Raeford, like every
other DZ at which I've jumped, does indeed like to
see your qualifications and have you sign a waiver
before you manifest on a load and jump.
You, by your own admission, seem aware of this.
So, to me, it appears that you deliberately and
willfully circumvented this process. Manifest,
by and large, is exactly that....a very nice lady who
takes your money and places you on a load. As I
said every DZ I've jumped at has wanted this information and I've taken it upon myself to find the
responsible party and have provided them with my USPA and packing data cards. It never occurred to me to bypass the procedure and just get on a load. Perhaps RPC could take a more hardcore approach to this rather than relying on the honor and integrity of the individual jumper.