FrflyPimpDaddy 0 #1 June 30, 2009 So, what do you think? Should new AFF Instructor candidates be allowed to use tunnel time in addition to jump time to meet the minimum 6 hour freefall requirement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,439 #2 June 30, 2009 Not on first glance. AFF is the essence of learning how to manage unpredictable situations, and using the tunnel is the essence of removing some unpredictable elements from freefall. Could tunnel time be used to increase the skill level? Absolutely. But there's something different about skydiving (just ask any of the tunnel rats who don't jump). Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #3 June 30, 2009 In a word, NO! six hours of free fall time with the earth speeding towards your body is already and absolute minimum amount of experience for any new AFF-I. The tunnel can give you skill, but it can not give you the same experience. Just my opinion of course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 June 30, 2009 IMO, no.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #5 June 30, 2009 No.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #6 July 1, 2009 Yes. We already count drogue-fall -- essentially a glorified hop-n-pop -- as freefall time for the purpose of qualifying for an AFF rating. Tunnel time is way more useful. Also, the AFF IRC is a performance-oriented course. I'm not sure there should be any minimum freefall time requirement, as long as a candidate can meet the instructional and freefall performance requirements. There should, however, be a minimum time (it used to be a year or two to go from jumpmaster to instructor) and minimum number of jumps as a USPA Coach before attempting an AFF rating. There are way too many instructors who go from no ratings at all to holding an AFF-I rating in two weeks. That's another thread, though. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
incendium 0 #7 July 1, 2009 Let me make this statement for you instead, lets have 16 yr old kids get into flight simulators then fly your butt across he country first time around...... Actually I would have to say no to this one. v/r Paul "Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level and beat you!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mixoligist 0 #8 July 1, 2009 If I hit the ball really good in the batting cage can i go play in the big league too?.................................. Better you than me .................................. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #9 July 1, 2009 That's another very interesting way of looking at things.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #10 July 1, 2009 No, but I also feel a minimum time in sport should be required. Tunnel time may give you some flying skill, but it gives you no "sport" experience. Part of being an AFF-I is not only being able to fly with students, but hand off information about the sport that will keep them safe, information that is only truly acquired and understood with time and exposure to the sport of skydiving. DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 33 #11 July 1, 2009 minimum 6 hour "freefall" ------- Words matter. Tunnel time is not "freefall" time. Period.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #12 July 1, 2009 QuoteWe already count drogue-fall -- essentially a glorified hop-n-pop -- as freefall time for the purpose of qualifying for an AFF rating. Tunnel time is way more useful. Agreed that tunnel time might be more useful to the refinement of flying skills than drogue-fall. But still - drogue fall involves the inescapable psychological stress and performance demands flowing from the risk of certain death if velocity is not reduced to a survivable speed before impact, just as drogue-less freefall does. Tunnel time does not. We certainly want AFF-I's to be very well-acclimated to freefall, of course. Tunnel time surely helps the jumper acclimate to many of the physical skills of freefall, but less so to the psychological experience of actually being in (frankly: death-defying) freefall. In my non-instructor's humble opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #13 July 1, 2009 QuoteYes. We already count drogue-fall -- essentially a glorified hop-n-pop -- as freefall time for the purpose of qualifying for an AFF rating. Tunnel time is way more useful. Mark To get a tandem rating you need at least 500 jumps to qualify. That 500 jumps should give you the 6 hours of freefall time needed (unless you do a lot of hop and pops or jump at a Cessna only dropzone- whole different discussion there). So before you start tossing drogues, in most cases, you have already got the 6 hours of freefall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #14 July 1, 2009 Would you allow or support the wavering of the 500 jump requirement if someone came in with 200 hours in the tunnel and 350 jumps?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #15 July 1, 2009 QuoteWould you allow or support the wavering of the 500 jump requirement if someone came in with 200 hours in the tunnel and 350 jumps? Not for a tandem rating. The 500 jump requirement is for 500 ram air canopy jumps. Tunnel time does nothing to develop canopy skills. DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #16 July 1, 2009 QuoteWould you allow or support the wavering of the 500 jump requirement if someone came in with 200 hours in the tunnel and 350 jumps? Just off hand without putting to much thought into it I would say no to the waver. There is much more experience(not flying your body experience) gained from actually jumping from an airplane and flying a canopy than being in the tunnel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #17 July 2, 2009 QuoteSo, what do you think? Should new AFF Instructor candidates be allowed to use tunnel time in addition to jump time to meet the minimum 6 hour freefall requirement? No. Nowadays it doesn't take many jumps at all to rack up six hours of freefall. I know two people who post here who got their AFF tickets in under 400 jumps. While tunnel time tailored specifically for AFF rating candidates (spin stops/ roll-overs/ bottom-end sequence) is DEFINITELY beneficial, it cannot replace the experience of making six hours of actual freefall. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #18 July 3, 2009 Quote Let me make this statement for you instead, lets have 16 yr old kids get into flight simulators then fly your butt across he country first time around...... I'm not sure why it's a 16 year old kid, but other than that, I'm fine with it. If someone did lots of simulator time and passed the evaluations in a real airplane, then why not? I don't think tunnel time is freefall time, but I also think the freefall time requirement doesn't mean a whole lot. Say someone does 200 jumps and then 80 wingsuit jumps. That's plenty to get 6 hours of freefall time. Now say someone has 280 jumps and 20 hours of wind tunnel time specifically training for the AFF rating. One has 6 hours of freefall time, one doesn't. Who do you think is more qualified and going to do better on the evaluation jumps?Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #19 July 3, 2009 QuoteSay someone does 200 jumps and then 80 wingsuit jumps. That's plenty to get 6 hours of freefall time. Now say someone has 280 jumps and 20 hours of wind tunnel time specifically training for the AFF rating. One has 6 hours of freefall time, one doesn't. Who do you think is more qualified and going to do better on the evaluation jumps? Your point is reasonable; but we're dealing with formal standards to be applied across the board. They have to be workable, and sometimes that means keeping them simple in order to keep them user-friendly. And that often means playing to the largest common denominator. Sometimes when you have rules and regulations, having too many "except", "unless" and "alternative" clauses results in a real cluster-fuck while everyone does the gymnastics to try to accommodate the far ends of the bell curve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #20 July 3, 2009 I am not an AFF-I, but the following differences between real freefall and tunnel time seem relevant: No spotting No weather No exit No gripped exits No canopy deployment (and dealing with deployment problems) With the current time specification... we know that an applicant has at least ~360 of the above.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,439 #21 July 3, 2009 Someone with 280 jumps including 80 wingsuit jumps is likely to be counseled VERY strongly against trying to become an AFF/I. And, if he tries anyway, he is exceedingly unlikely to pass the course. It is possible even to postulate someone who is so talented that they can pass the course with 280 jumps. If so, they are definitely the exception, and an individual assessment by a course director can help ascertain. But, ya know -- someone who is just as talented, but doesn't have access to wingsuits and can't afford to travel and who jumps at a 182 DZ will take a lot longer to get the freefall time. It's not about being fair to the potential instructor. It's about being fair to the student. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #22 July 3, 2009 QuoteSo, what do you think? Should new AFF Instructor candidates be allowed to use tunnel time in addition to jump time to meet the minimum 6 hour freefall requirement? no. Jumps are much more than freefall. But there has been one person that did get tunnel time used for that requirement. See the winter 2007 minutes pg 30-31. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #23 July 3, 2009 Quotethere has been one person that did get tunnel time used for that requirement. See the winter 2007 minutes pg 30-31. 12 to 8 vote. Pretty close split. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,439 #24 July 3, 2009 And, with a formal waiver available, it sounds like what's in place now works. Not sure I'd've voted that way, but that's why we have waivers. Jay Stokes's evaluation would go a long way towards convincing folks. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
