Have you ever turned a student away?

[dninness 4]

I actually saw this just today.

Had a woman in the FJC I taught yesterday, she self-disclosed that she had pins in her hips, arthritis, etc. OK, I pulled her off privately and discussed the physical rigors of the sport and she claimed that she could "do it all." Ooookay.. During PLF practice, her PLFs were pretty piss poor, actually.

She was very heads up and aware (locked on) during the class, did well in the training, etc, but I noticed that while we were doing mock up training she was "squishy" around the area where you'd grab the harness for an AFF exit, and that she appeared to have recently lost a LOT of weight. Her muscle tone seemed a little poor, too, but its not like I asked her to haul off and punch me or something.

Today, she sat in on some AFF recurrencies for students who haven't jumped since last year. Apparently during that time my co-instructor from the FJC became aware that this lady didn't have the upper body strength to to peel and punch the cutaway or reserve handles.

The DZO had a talk with her and apparently she was sent packing. Now, I don't know if she was sent with "Hey, look, you need to improve your upper body strength.." or it was "Sorry, you don't have it.. go away." I'd be tremendously surprised if it was the latter, and suspect the conversation was more like the former.

Of course, we had another student today who, frankly, may require the bowling talk. Older gent, jumped once last year, pretty serious overthinking/brainlocking while executing on the ground. To the point where additional repetitions of the training evolution were making it worse.

I took him into a one-on-one situation and we worked thru the dive flow and concentrated on sequence. He kept inserting additional practice pulls after the 2nd COA, and then forgetting to wave off before pulling, to the point where he'd go back for the pull and then remember the wave off, then stop pulling and wave off.

We worked with him and then two other instructors geared him up and jumped him. Consensus was: Universally poor skydive to the point where the mainside had to dump him out. Yikes.

We'll see on that one.

NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

[timmyfitz 0]

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To the person that:"bullshit" You prove my point about bad teachers.

You really believe there are not any bad students in anything? It's all the teachers fault? You believe that every person can be taught to do anything with the right instruction?

Not every person has the mental ability to do ANYTHING they want or the physical ability to do ANYTHING they want, even with the best teacher.

So yes, bullshit.

[azureriders 0]

I have given three different speeches that went something like ~ Skydiving is not for everyone...yada..yada...yada...so you are going to have to fix --insert problem-- or perhaps find some other way to occupy your weekends ~

Two of those are still jumping and doing well, the other still does a tandem once a month and is a real part of the DZ family.

I do not believe in the bowling speech, as it is normally just an instructor cop out, but there is a time and place for everything, even a speech I don't believe in.

My fourth such speech is in the making right now. Hard headed old gent that complains of shoulder pain to get out of mock up practice, but then wants to know when we are going up. Weather has been bad so far, but when his class mates start going up and not him, then the talk will happen.

[toolbox 0]

It is still possible to drown with flotation gear,especially with a bunch of nylon fabric coming down on top of you.
Now throw the inability to use your arms and legs to save your own life into the mix!

[toolbox 0]

Very well put.

[wmw999 2,447]

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Not every person has the mental ability to do ANYTHING they want or the physical ability to do ANYTHING they want, even with the best teacher.

That's absolutely true. However, it's equally true that a creative instructor and a motivated student can often find a different way to accomplish the necessary goals/skills -- if the key ones can be identified.

Go to the Disabled Skydivers forum here to read about paraplegics jumping. They're making accomodations for what doesn't work. Now go back 30 years, and the biggest problem was landing under round canopies. You get someone with perfectly functional arms and brain, and yes, they can land in the water with appropriate (and backup) flotation gear.

Legally and totally blind jumpers have jumped, with backup radios and the assumption that they count rather than rely on altimeters.

Not everyone can. Not everyone who can is motivated enough. But a good instructor understands the underlying requirements for the skills they're teaching, and tries to help motivated students find a way to achieve those skills and knowledge, rather than just giving them the bowling speech.

And sometimes it just won't work. Back in the very early 80's there was a quad who really, really wanted to jump. But her arm function wasn't good enough -- no fingers, and even with an SOS system it was way scary. She tried, and tried to figure out how she could do the necessary skills.

But then tandem came along, and it was tailor-made for her. Sometimes after trying, you have to modify your goals. I'll never be a concert pianist. But I started lessons in January anyway.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[riggerrob 643]

AFF students tend to "pre-select" themselves because training is so expensive.

Similarly, Canadian PFF students are "pre-selected" before they are introduced to freefall instructors.
For example, last year a slender, hyper-active young man did a tandem jump. He showed up a week later for the (IAD) First Jump Course. Since the ground school instructor was new, I monitored the ground school. Even with both of us offering suggestions, he was not ready to jump by the end of the day. Fortunately, weather was marginal, giving us an opportunity to finish ground school the following morning. He had to do several IAD jumps before demonstrating a marginal arch.

A PFF Instructor struggled for a day-and-a-half before telling the guy he was not ready for PFF. The most frustrating part was that he would say "got it!" before an instructor finished explaining a move.

Sad thing is the young man was not doing any drugs, he was just hyper-active by nature.

[timmyfitz 0]

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Not every person has the mental ability to do ANYTHING they want or the physical ability to do ANYTHING they want, even with the best teacher.

That's absolutely true. However, it's equally true that a creative instructor and a motivated student can often find a different way to accomplish the necessary goals/skills -- if the key ones can be identified.

This is true but it still does not mean EVERYONE can do ANYTHING with a good teacher. It is not always the teachers fault.

Like I said before "Not every person has the mental ability to do ANYTHING they want or the physical ability to do ANYTHING they want, even with the best teacher."

[skydude2000 3]

I agree that it's not always the teacher's fault, but I'd like to think I'm living proof that a teacher's patience and a student's determination can overcome just about anything. It was a real challenge learning to pack with one good hand, and THEN re-learning, with the pro-pack. But I had good instructors with helpful suggestions, until it got to the point that I had to figure out what would work for me. But without that guidance, I would have quit after jump #1.

After 9 years, and over 200 jumps later, I'm becoming the coach. I can only hope I can show my students the kind of faith my instructors showed in me
Just my 2 cents.

PULL!! or DIE!!

[Andy9o8 2]

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We worked with him and then two other instructors geared him up and jumped him. Consensus was: Universally poor skydive to the point where the mainside had to dump him out. Yikes.

I'm not an instructor, but - isn't it true that some people who might eventually develop into competent skydivers still should not make their first jump via AFF because of "focus" issues? For some students, Method A sets them up for failure, while Method B might be successful. I know you were there and I wasn't, but in retrospect, was an AFF jump the best way for this guy to start his student progression? Maybe someone like that student would have been better off with a hybrid program starting out with 2 or 3 tandems and a couple/few S/L or IAD jumps, to get his mental shit together, before transitioning over to AFF jumps. Not a criticism; just a thought for further discussion.

Since each method has its benefits and drawbacks, I've come to be a big believer in a hybrid progression: at least 1 tandem to get past sensory overload without any performance demands, a couple S/L or IADs and a hop & pop to experience the basics of saving one's own life and canopy piloting, then AFF to learn how to fly. Small steps, rather than The Big Gulp. Sounds like this guy's a good candidate for something like that.

[jackwallace 3]

I have seen more than one instructor give up on a student. My ex-wife was told three times she couldn't/shouldn't jump at three different places. She has been on numerous world records and 4 way at the Nats.
I have seen an instructor turn into a raving child about his student. 42 jumps and was pretty much on level 1. Almost always had to be pulled.Couldn't land for crap. Tunnel time etc. Some one suggested maybe another instructor try. Two jumps later the man did a stable pull and landed like a feather.
Why? Chemistry. Is all I can say. I use to be in racing and people search for that chem all the time. Because it makes winners.
Too many instructors don't look at themselves,
I never turned a student away, even arrogant jocks.

U only make 2 jumps: the first one for some weird reason and the last one that you lived through. The rest are just filler.
scr 316

[Skydivesg 7]

timmyfitz, you're waisting your typing skills my friend.

Some people have so much arrogance that they think they can teach anything to anyone regardless of physical and mental ability.

I certaintly would not want them working on my DZ.

We don't always get to hear about the students who left the sport not because they died but because they got hurt, really bad.

We certaintly aren't going to read on this forum from the instructor who just insisted they could teach anyone anything. I've always wondered how many people our sport has maimed over the years. Especially the ones who were hand held during the initial training and then moved on to some other area or DZ and hurt themselves.

That's one thing Jim Crouch has been frustrated about, the lack of reporting of serious injuries.

But hey, were not responsible right?

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[DSE 5]

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but it still does not mean EVERYONE can do ANYTHING with a good teacher. It is not always the teachers fault.

Like I said before "Not every person has the mental ability to do ANYTHING they want or the physical ability to do ANYTHING they want, even with the best teacher."

Well said.
Just because an instructor can teach something very well does doesn't mean the instructor can be well-matched to every student. Some students require a unique communication skill set that not every instructor may possess. A good instructor will turn that student over to someone else for their assessment. Some students simply cannot be taught the skills they need for either physical, mental, or motivational reasons.

[Baksteen 84]

Yes. And I *hate* the bowling speech.

But if someone tries to pump the slider up until they are at 1k and then cut away (thank you RSL) without taking any further action, ending in a downwind no-flare landing I quickly run out of options....

This particular student was not able to jump immediately after their FJC for whatever reasons, and apparently never thought of skydiving again until showing up at the DZ a few weeks later.

I might add the student in question never realised the gravity of the situation, despite me and a full instructor trying mulitple times - first in person and later via email after the student had been sent away. They just kept insisting they 'followed the procedures the exact way they were taught' and placed blame on everyone but themselves.

But if anyone has any suggestions about a different approach, I'm all ears

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[davelepka 4]

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I have seen more than one instructor give up on a student. My ex-wife was told three times she couldn't/shouldn't jump at three different places. She has been on numerous world records and 4 way at the Nats.

Good for your ex-wife, I'm glad things worked out well.

I don't remember any of their names, and I never married any of them, but I can picture an easy dozen guys in my mind who were 'problem' students that instructors worked and worked to get them through their training, and it ended with the jumper getting hurt and never jumping again.

I would tend to look at an instructor who never turned away a student not as a hero, but closer to a selfish prick who doesn't realize that sometimes looking out for the students best interest means telling them 'no'.

If a student doesn't respond to the 'normal' training in the FJC, that's a sign that this is not a normal student. If that same student, after modified training, performs poorly on the skydive, that's another sign. If that poor performance follws the student to another instructor, and that instructors style of trianing, that's yet another sign, and it's not a sign that both instructors and every trick they have are sub-par, it's a sign the student is in the wrong place.

Part of your job as an instructor is protecting your student from undue danger (like walking into a prop) and for some people, exiting an aircraft presents undue danger to their person, Not everyone is cut out to be a skydiver. Get over yourself, and realize that it's not about you and how great you are, it's about playing the odds and keeping people from hurting or killing themselves.

[dninness 4]

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We worked with him and then two other instructors geared him up and jumped him. Consensus was: Universally poor skydive to the point where the mainside had to dump him out. Yikes.

I'm not an instructor, but - isn't it true that some people who might eventually develop into competent skydivers still should not make their first jump via AFF because of "focus" issues? For some students, Method A sets them up for failure, while Method B might be successful. I know you were there and I wasn't, but in retrospect, was an AFF jump the best way for this guy to start his student progression? Maybe someone like that student would have been better off with a hybrid program starting out with 2 or 3 tandems and a couple/few S/L or IAD jumps, to get his mental shit together, before transitioning over to AFF jumps. Not a criticism; just a thought for further discussion.

Great point. My DZ requires our AFF students to have taken one tandem before they start AFF (that tandem can be a "Cat A" tandem, of course, but in many cases its just the lead in to "that was a blast, I want to do it again by my self!")

This student had a tandem, and then had a Cat A last year at some point and had gone uncurrent. We got him recurrent in training Sunday and took him up on another Cat A (well, two other instructors did).

My AFF group was behind his, and as reserve side I was right there watching his performance in the door. As I expected, he overthought/brainlocked and his exit was pretty poor. He got in the door and shouted to the main side "I'm ready to skydive!" which is not something he'd done in any of the ground training iterations. ("Uh, dude, thats the Hotel check you're supposed to be doing there..") He then looked at the door frame for 2 seconds, then decided that yes, indeed, maybe he should be doing his Hotel check. Check in, OK, check out, OK. And then you could hear it: the sound of a dialtone for several seconds. Then he did something that was like down, up, down, up, ready, set, set, ready, go.

I was like "Holy cow, I would have probably misinterpreted his exit count and dragged the poor SOB off the plane had I been his reserve side..."



***Since each method has its benefits and drawbacks, I've come to be a big believer in a hybrid progression: at least 1 tandem to get past sensory overload without any performance demands, a couple S/L or IADs and a hop & pop to experience the basics of saving one's own life and canopy piloting, then AFF to learn how to fly. Small steps, rather than The Big Gulp. Sounds like this guy's a good candidate for something like that.

Yeah, I tend to agree with a hybrid approach with the more problematic students in particular.

But after spending 30-45 minutes working with this particular student 1 on 1, maybe some Focalin in his Pepsi might have helped, too. :)

NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

[riggerrob 643]

"...
I would tend to look at an instructor who never turned away a student not as a hero, but closer to a selfish prick ...

[skydived19006 4]

One real memorable guy who had “…done jumps in the army 30 years ago!” He obviously didn’t need any of the long winded pampas instruction we had to offer him, damn civilians! He also didn’t need ground control, ignored me on paddles, and screwed himself in breaking ribs etc. He came back a couple of weeks later and made the mistake of asking me what he’d done wrong. I laid it out in very plain terms (army guy remember), to which he responded “What if I come over this counter and whip your ass?!” To which I responded “We’ll call the police and have you arrested.” He didn’t whip my ass, and we never saw him again.

Another drug burn out guy who we did do a tandem with wanted to train solo, we told him no, he threatened to sue us. He didn’t jump, nor sue.

Another guy who lied about his age (shaved 20 or so years) did a tandem and loved it. We put him out on a couple of IADs, but he really did not have the physical strength to manage it. I asked him to come talk with me after his instructor had finished up his post jump ground brief. He paid and left without “having the talk”, he knew what it was about. I was going to offer him discounted tandems.

We weed out heavy folks every day over the phone, though we don’t refuse them, just advise that they can’t jump at their present weight. We also advise those under 18 that they can jump, but not until after their 18th b-day.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[SimonBones 1]

I've only ever turned a student away once. I can honestly say I did my best and really gave him everything I could. He truly truly truly was NOT cut out for skydiving. I've had slow learning or problem students before, but this guy... to this day I feel speechless over this guy.

I taught an FJC with 3 students. He was one. He was so incredibly slow and confused the whole day that in the interest of the other students, I had to finish their training separate and come back to the problem student. Nothing made sense to this guy. I spent almost the entire day working with him on just the basics of understanding the equipment. After about 8 hours of taking the main canopy out and showing him all 3 handles, he still could not understand the difference between any of the three, could not identify correctly which handle did what, nor which handle to pull in malfunction situations. After 8 hours, much of which was one on one.

At the end of the day, some other instructors and I gave up and sent him on a tandem. He did awful on the tandem. He was fetal and completely rigid the entire time despite hand signals, never once looked at his altimeter nor made any effort to deploy even with prompting.

This student went on to do 3 more tandems all with similar results. But we kept trying. We tried and tried and tried. We even sent him to a wind tunnel where he did an entire hour. After that hour, the wind tunnel instructors were completely fed up with him and said he was about where he was when he first got there. The hour did absolutely nothing for him and the tunnel instructors were not very keen on having him back. I guess there is only so much fighting and flailing with an over 6ft thicker guy before you just throw in the towel with trying to teach him anything.

We still kept trying and he still kept coming back to the DZ every weekend and would hang out all day asking questions and watching people pack. After a few weeks he signed up for another AFF FJC which I taught AGAIN and had similar results to the first time. After weeks of being at the DZ and two full all day FJCs, he still could not identify the basic difference between any of the 3 handles.

Eventually I gave up and sent him for private 1 on 1 time with the DZs most experienced instructor as myself and all the other instructors just could not get anything out of him. After a few more weekends of work with the chief instructor they finally agreed to take him up for a level 1 AFF. Apparently he was completely unresponsive in freefall, made no effort to look at his altimeter ever, was JM deployed after prompting. He was completely unresponsive to the person on radio and ended up taking a downwinder barely missing a building, but walking away unhurt and trembling, pale as a ghost. At that moment he finally decided for himself that he could never be a skydiver and left.

Every instructor on the DZ gave him their best and every single one would eventually give up and turn him away. I protested him even going on that AFF jump.

This was a few years ago. He was actually a fairly educated man. I think he was either a doctor or lawyer.

Some people, just are NOT fixable no matter the instructor. Sucking in freefall is one thing, having no ability to grasp the concept between different handles or understanding even the basics of the equipment is something else.

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[BMichaeli 1]

i am not an instructor but i witnessed a student get turned away in the middle of his AFF level 1. after watching the videos and doing half of the ground training they went on lunch break. i was talking to the instructor in front of the tandem student harnesses before they started back up again and a student comes up to him and asks him "so when do we get does the person get on our back?" after being stunned (the both of us) he just replies "what?" the student again asks the same question. the instructor just says to the student "one second" and walks away. i left and wondered off but i heard latter that day that the instructor came back with another instructor and they talk to him and remove him from the class and sign him up for a tandem jump... needless to say he has not be back at the DZ since then.

[D11281 1]

Over the years, I've taught somewhere over 2,000 FJ students, with only a very few, maybe 5 or 6, not being allowed to jump (solo). I say solo parenthetically because in the very old days, tandems were not available as an option.

Some examples: One guy was obviously mentally ill. Seriously. When advised that he would not be cleared to jump, he pulled from his wallet a letter from President Jimmy Carter (I said it was LOONNGG ago) thanking him for some artwork he had contributed to the White House. It was his feeling that this lent him the impramatur of the Office of the President in this matter. He was sorry to go over our heads but he was intent on making this jump!

Another, some year later, was a woman i offered the eoptions of sitting through the FJC again or doing a tandem. She opted for the tandem but was really quite irate that I would limit her in this way. A very good friend of mine was the TM and he related the story later. Immediately on exit, she began to violently flail around and generally freak out. Soon, she grabbed the handle and dumped them at ~11 grand. She then started puking all over herself and him for the next 10 thousand feet. He was PISSED and not very grateful for my referral.

I have not had any regrets about the few times where I refused to clear someone to jump. I have, however, regretted some of the times that I've had serious concerns about someone but let them go anyway, most likely because I don't want to be the bad guy who refuses someone something they really, really want to do.

On one such occasion, the guy ignored all radio instruction and flew into a quite large tree ending up about 25 feet off the ground. He then cutaway. He wound up with only some scratches and scrapes but I know I had let this student down. Also the DZO and other interested parties.

My position is that an Instuctor's role is more than teaching and educating students. A very large portion of that role is in the area of supervision and risk management. Despite what the waiver's say, students are not capable of assessing and managing their own relative risks due to insufficient information and experience.
If, as an instructor, you've never come across a student that you thought was outside the limits of acceptable risk, maybe you haven't dealt with enough students. Or maybe you're not doing one of the hardest part of the job.

BB

[usedtajump 1]

The only student I can remember turning away was a tandem passenger who had such incredible BO that it made me gag to the point of throwing up in my mouth to be in the mock up with him. Told him to go home, take a shower and change clothes then we'd proceed. Never saw him again.

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[pchapman 279]

We have to remember that it isn't just whether someone is teachable, but teachable within a reasonable amount of time. An instructor should be willing to do some extra work to help a student, and sometimes a DZ will share the workload to help someone out who is making a good effort.

But if you have a first jump class a student is expected to not be TOO far below the average when it comes to learning. If one is taking a course at university, there's a finite amount of time to learn the subject in, and some people are going to fail to learn within the time available. You can't take that comparison too far, but there are practical limits to how much teaching a student is going to get, from an instructor paid a fixed amount for that student.

[Andy9o8 2]

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the guy ignored all radio instruction and flew into a quite large tree ending up about 25 feet off the ground. He then cutaway.

If he had a Skyhook, he'd have had a clean reserve deployment.
I'm just saying.

[Beverly 1]

I have advised people to stop.
It is never a nice thing to do if they have been trying for a while, but if they have done a few jumps, it is quite easy to let them know that Skydiving is not for everyone.

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa