Small but effective trick

[DSE 5]

Quote

Quote

I knew he wasn't breathing by the tenseness he exhibited a few seconds before pull time. He wasn't unstable, it was just "one of those things" you learn to look for.

You said earlier your debrief was about breathing, what did you guys discuss about the cause of him holding his breath?

Each question you've asked in both posts has been already asked and answered.
You still haven't provided your solution.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

"...and then a little crew of self proclaimed wannabe instructors jumped in on his defense."


I've no desire to be an instructor. I already have a profession, Thank You. One doesn't have to be an expert in this field to smell fertilizer. You're the latest of Ron's friends who have come here twisting the facts around. .

No biggie, but I didn't post this. You meant to reply to Rhys's post #75. (Mine was post #74)

[format 1]

Excuse me for interrupting this, this.. thread, without instructor ratings
but
as a student I have to ask: Is it forbidden not to breath in free fall?

May I add - I believe I perform better, more focused, prompt and quicker when I don't breath?

Is that so unbelievable?

When I need air, I take it.

What goes around, comes later.

[DSE 5]

Quote

Excuse me for interrupting this, this.. thread, without instructor ratings
but
as a student I have to ask: Is it forbidden not to breath in free fall?

May I add - I believe I perform better, more focused, prompt and quicker when I don't breath?

Is that so unbelievable?

When I need air, I take it.

You have a very valid point. However, in a WS skydive that lasts longer than 60 seconds, you might find your sudden new need to breathe a problem if you haven't been breathing up to that point.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Wow, we're starting all over again? funny

So, if the student (or even another instructor) just shows up with hangover/coffee/ashtray mouth -

can I just give them a breath mint because they smell disgusting and unprofessional?

A good instructor would offer deodorant soap.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rhys 0]

Quote

Each question you've asked in both posts has been already asked and answered.
You still haven't provided your solution.

Look, your initial post reads as though you dragged someone through the process rather than nurturing them through.

I am not going to go through 5 pages of tripe to get a number, nor am I going to continue to debate with you about it, you posted your actions, and asked for an opionion, don't be surprised if not everybody agrees with you.

You may or may not have discussed their anxiety or other reason for holding their breath, but you just came out of the blue, told us a stroy about your breath strips in a thread on instructional techniques in an instructor forum.

If you are not willing to open dialogue about your methods, what is the point is starting a thread about them.

You are confusing.

Personally I would look for the psycological casue of this breathing difficulty.

That is where I would probe, find out what is going on in thier head and try to resolve the inhibition.

I would have taken them back a step and made sure thay were complete with their progression in the previous stage/s, find the point where thay can relax agian and see what is missing from there.

Make sure someone is ready to move on, before progressing them.

Dont drag them through their curve, make sure they are having fun and finding a comfortable and relaxed position in each step along the way, not stiff holding their breath or focusing on a future target/aim the whole time without making all the appropriate steps.

If someone is not breathing and the effects of that are visible from an external point of view, then that person is not relaxed and far from doing their activity effectively.

We all know (or should know) that to master any physical manoever one must learn to relax while doing it.

Go back and do some tracking jumps with nice big breaths looking at each other. If they cannot dock or fly relative and show that they are relaxed and coherent, then they are not ready to move on yet.

Thats what I would do.

Sometime people don't want to admit thay are having trouble. That is what concerns me here.

It is better to move on after you are ready, rather than before you are ready.

You may well be doing all that but your origional post did not read that way. Try to be a little more concise perhaps?

I'm out.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[normiss 840]

"You are confusing."


Funniest......most ironic.......oh stop......thing I've EVER......read here

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

Each question you've asked in both posts has been already asked and answered.
You still haven't provided your solution.

Quote

I am not going to go through 5 pages of tripe to get a number, nor am I going to continue to debate with you about it, you posted your actions, and asked for an opionion, don't be surprised if not everybody agrees with you.

If you can't be bothered to read the previous post that have already answered your questions, why should he bother to repeat it just for you?

Quote

You may or may not have discussed their anxiety or other reason for holding their breath, but you just came out of the blue, told us a stroy about your breath strips in a thread on instructional techniques in an instructor forum.

He did discuss it. Try reading first.

Quote

If you are not willing to open dialogue about your methods, what is the point is starting a thread about them.

As stated before, it has been discussed. Or it must be a conspiracy.

[PiLFy 3]

Quote

Quote

"...and then a little crew of self proclaimed wannabe instructors jumped in on his defense."


I've no desire to be an instructor. I already have a profession, Thank You. One doesn't have to be an expert in this field to smell fertilizer. You're the latest of Ron's friends who have come here twisting the facts around....

Quote

Are you guys done swinging your dicks around?

I think its a neat trick. As a coach and wannabe instructor I frequent this forum often looking for tips just like this one so that I may learn from others experience...

Try reading the whole thread....

Try using the proper tense. You wrote wannabe instructorS...

[PiLFy 3]

Quote

Quote

"...and then a little crew of self proclaimed wannabe instructors jumped in on his defense."


I've no desire to be an instructor. I already have a profession, Thank You. One doesn't have to be an expert in this field to smell fertilizer. You're the latest of Ron's friends who have come here twisting the facts around. .

No biggie, but I didn't post this. You meant to reply to Rhys's post #75. (Mine was post #74)

I sorry.

[AndyMan 7]

Thanks for posting this Douglas. Having some empathy for your students, remembering what it was like back when you were a student yourself is a big part of what makes a truly great instructor. Remembering where you came from is a great way to help come up with new ways to help others.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[normiss 840]

Agreed.

[diablopilot 2]

How about the pill you give students? Why is that one ok?

You know the one you use on your first time tandem students, where you tell them everything is roses, and take them for a ride? How you decide that it's not an instructional skydive, and they don't need to have any responsibility.

Hey, Pot. The Kettle is calling.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Skyper 0]

Quote

Quote

Wow, we're starting all over again? funny

So, if the student (or even another instructor) just shows up with hangover/coffee/ashtray mouth -

can I just give them a breath mint because they smell disgusting and unprofessional?

A good instructor would offer deodorant soap.

this one is killer

[Heatmiser 0]

"It was the fucking Nazis I tell ya, the FUCKING NAZIS!"

Had to get my Godwin on.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[hallux 0]

well no comment on DSE's choice. Obviously he was in the situation and in the postion to read the student. I surely hope that he wasnt breathing due to stress. I would think after 200 jumps he has just developed a habit of breathe holding due to his concentration on the skydive.

That being said. Anyone that believes in a breathing strip is a moron. Also any instructor that insulted me by trying to sell me on that shit like I was 8yrs old would instantly become a douche bag in my mind. So apparently this guy was a little stupid or slightly retarded. So maybe he shouldnt have been jumping at all.

and i hope that some poster was kidding about anti-gravity pills. Because thats beyond retardedly douche like.

[hookitt 1]

There is no way the student was sold on a breathing strip. It's not offensive in anyway. I have to remind plenty of people to breathe when performing student dives and Freefly coaching. He was simply given a way to remember to relax a bit. I think it's funny and affective for an already experienced skydiver to use a reminder. I would roll my eyes at breathing strip but ya know what?... it will remind you to be less tense.


Take a freefly coaching dive for instance. (this goes for tunnel flying as well). Discuss it before hand how you will remind them to breath., If you can remind them to breathe again, they relax a bit and start flying remarkably smoother. After some time, the act of tensing up will be a self reminder.

Some of you guys are acting ridiculous in this thread.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

That being said. Anyone that believes in a breathing strip is a moron.

wow - I can only assume some of the posters here have never had anything mint, or a cough drop in their lives. This is the third or 4th comment of this type. At first, I though people were just giving DSE some joking good natured ribbing, but now I think that a few of you are serious

jump run "here, take this breath strip - see how when you inhale you get that cool feeling? maybe that'll be a reminder that you are breathing. " student takes strip and inhales "oooh, what a crisp (mediciny) sensation!!"

then it works, maybe. so after that, they have a little inside joke and start calling them "magic breathing strips" just for fun

do you guys seriously believe that the term "magic breathing strip" is anything but tongue in cheek - little ironic jokes are great to loosen a student up. it IS part of the job

have you ever taken a deep breath after eating a mint? it feels different and nice. that sensation is certainly one option for some people to remind them about breathing

edit: Some of you guys are acting ridiculous in this thread.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DSE 5]

you can decide for yourself whether the student was stressin'.

He's pretty stable, enough so that a brief dock could be taken higher up. However, most wingsuiters will recognize that he's not breathing shortly before pull time, and he gets very close to being unstable. He also took too long to fold in his arms (causing line twists) and the stiffness from not breathing caused him to swing around.
Once we got the breathing/relaxation issue sorted out, his improvement was immediate, and when he left here, he was comfortable with advanced techniques.
No, he did not believe that the Listerine strip was "magic" nor a "placebo" nor anything but a mint. It reminded him to breathe. Little changeups can have a big impact. It's now a running joke between myself and other instructors here, and him as a student.
FWIW, one AFFI/E sent me a PM saying he's been using this trick for years, and another DZO in the Midwest sent a PM saying they've been doing this with students for years. It's nothing new, just new to me.
It's great this thread sparked some good conversation.

[rhys 0]

Quote

How about the pill you give students? Why is that one ok?

You know the one you use on your first time tandem students, where you tell them everything is roses, and take them for a ride? How you decide that it's not an instructional skydive, and they don't need to have any responsibility.

Hey, Pot. The Kettle is calling.

Tandem students (complete kettle of fish)

1, I don't give them anything but information.

2, I am in control of them / they are not out there on their own.

3, I don't freak them out with what can go wrong as they have no control over correcting it. (besides the body position I tell them 3-4 times).

4, A wingsuiter that is not comfortble, and not breathing poses a much larger risk to, themself, others in the sky and the incident rate of the said DZ than a tandem customer that goes foetal.

Like I have said 3 times; I do not think it is likely that they were actually holding thier breath from exit to opening try holding your breath for 90 seconds while holding a stiff position. Maybe just before opening, but the message that was conveyed to us from DSE was that it was the whole time.

How about you discuss the subject. I cannot remeber a tandem customer of mine holding thier breath for the whole jump, so it is not a real good comparison.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

It is very common for people to hold thier breath before opening, that is VERY different to holding thier breath from exit to opening.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[steveorino 7]

Quote

Personally I would look for the psycological casue of this breathing difficulty.

Since this is what I do for a living, I'm curious what training do you have to diagnose psychological causes ... (of anything?)

steveOrino

[rhys 0]

Quote

Since this is what I do for a living, I'm curious what training do you have to diagnose psychological causes ... (of anything?)

Ask them what is going on on thier head, what they think is making them not breath, talk about it.

Psycology is a big part of instructing, you dont have to be a psycologist to find to root of ones inhibitions.

What do you suggest was not psycological about the breathing difficulty, and do you think instructors should ignore such details if they are not psycologists?

Give me a break.

If you disagree with my position address the position, not my credentials. We are all here to learn.

you are welcome to adress the point with your professional opinion.

It seems so far that we have come to two stand points.

1, The breath stip is a good idea.

2, The breath strip was not a good idea.

I have yet to see anything in between.

Why has this turned into attacking each other rather than addressing the point. Is this what DZ.com has become these days?

I have clearly stated what I would have done, given the information.
After watching the video of the jump I can see that he was clearly breathing at least some of the time, but as it was sliced and diced it is not possible to know the length of time they were in freefall.

This whole discussion is a storm in a teacup because not enough or the incorrect information was given initially.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[steveorino 7]

So your stance is credentials don't matter? Is that just in psychology or skydiving too?

steveOrino

[BobMoore 0]

Quote

So your stance is credentials don't matter? Is that just in psychology or skydiving too?

Far be it from me to defend rhys but skydiving instructors certainly don't need a psychology degree to assist their students to overcome anxiety. It's part of the job.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."