AFF student horseshoe mal! ..THAt was fun!

[steveorino 7]

Stooby & I took a Cat A AFF student up in a "okay" level 1 (or Cat A) Not too bad. Flat on exit, needed a few signals and a few prompts. At pull time he threw the pilot chute forward and it went under his arm! It started to flip him on his back as the D-bag came out. I was reserve side AFFI. I pulled him down and off the lines without incident and normal canopy and landing. Whoa! Was that a ride!

I wear GoPro handcam and forget it is on. Of the 140 pix it took the ones in the air were worthless. However, it took this one good one and what a good one it was!

steveOrino

[Para5-0 0]

Wow,
Nice shot. That will wake youup better than a coffee or redbull huh. Ihave been hit with it a few times and had it catch my arm once for a quick sec but man pull time is a experience all unto itself.

Had a cat d throw out once and it went into some sort of bag lock streamer in front of me. After video review, the toggle release and the cover opened up prior to deployment. When the student threw out the toggle wrapped the bridle of the dbag causing a mess. Stayed with him until 2000 or so with no options to help. Thank God he intiated EP.s and it release without further incident. Took break stopped shaking, had a iced T and calmed down.
THis shit is stressful.

[Cheach 0]

If it matters to anyone- the other instructor doesn't have on a helmet because the student's broke in the plane. So Stooby gave him his helmet

I woke up next to a blowup doll Ash....so what do you think?

[Canadianfella 0]

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I wear GoPro handcam and forget it is on.

What setup do you have for the handcam? A full glove? Do you not find it gets in the way, or at least could get in the way or be a snag hazard? If I have a student try to get out of control on me, I don't want to have a camera on my hand that could catch on anything... especially right next to risers.

[steveorino 7]

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I wear GoPro handcam and forget it is on.

What setup do you have for the handcam? A full glove? Do you not find it gets in the way, or at least could get in the way or be a snag hazard? If I have a student try to get out of control on me, I don't want to have a camera on my hand that could catch on anything... especially right next to risers.

My own home made one. A Reebock exercise glove with velcro on the top and a velcro strap. I use GoPros (I have a few) I sold all my Sony cams.

Never had a problem but I only have 900+ tandems and 100_+ AFFs all out of a Cessna.

steveOrino

[Scrumpot 1]

I agree with "Canadian". I think I would stand-down the Go-Pro set-up on the hand for my AFF jumps.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[steveorino 7]

Then if I were you I would.

As for me I rather jump it on every jump. .

steveOrino

[davelepka 4]

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100_+ AFFs all out of a Cessna

Food for thought, think about how you would regard the advice of a jumper with 100 jumps total. Just because they have done something 100 times, doesn't mean they are an expert, or what they are doing is a good idea.

The differences between AFF and tandem with reagrds to handcam is that tandem students are both attached to the instructor and not instructed to have much interaction with the rig. AFF students are not attached giving them a much greater range of movement, and of course they are instructed to have interaction with the rig.

The number of probelms this can create for an AFF student is the very reason you are there, to keep them from doing things like flipping around and getting tangled in their lines. This is also the reason that having a giant snag hazzard on yoru hand is a bad idea. If your hand should become snagged on the students rig when you reach in there to solve a problem, you have just exchanged one problem for another.

All of your jumps and all of your experience mean nothing if you still act like a newbie.

[steveorino 7]

I hesitated to post here because I knew it would take a few posts and the monday morning QBs would jump in and find fault with either Stooby, myself or something else. In this case it is the handcam. Few things change on this forum. No wonder I post about half as much.

The little go pro is velcroed on my wrist. It doesn't take much for it to get yanked off. It literally has about as much exposure as an altimeter. And yet the altimeter will stay on no matter what. I cannot conceive of a way my set-up would restrict either the students movement or mine. But you go ahead and criticize. You haven't seen it either, makes it easier to judge.

As I posted earlier, if you guys don't want to wear one ... no problem, don't. I don't want to swoop. Seems like a stupid way to get injured or die, but I stand by your right to do so.

steveOrino

[davelepka 4]

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I hesitated to post here because I knew it would take a few posts and the monday morning QBs would jump in and find fault with either Stooby, myself or something else.

I never mentioned one word about your partner.

Additional food for thought, if you are hesitant to post your actions for fear of other finding fault, you might want to take another look at what you're doing. If it cannot (or might not) meet with the approval of the community at-large, you might not be doing the right thing.

For as many people who are on here who would be willing to post critically against what you might be doing, there are an equal number waiting the wings to shoot those people down and defend a defendable position. You get both sides of the argument if both sides exist. If you see something that meets with universal (or even just a majority) approval or disapproval, that should mean something.

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if you guys don't want to wear one ... no problem, don't. I don't want to swoop. Seems like a stupid way to get injured or die, but I stand by your right to do so

Swooping doesn't impact the safety of the student. It is an additional risk, but only to the jumper who chooses to take it. The student has no choice nor understanding of the additional risk you have chosen on their behalf.

You even said yourself that 140-some photos were un-usable. With that type of failure rate, why even take the risk?

[piisfish 140]

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[ This is also the reason that having a giant snag hazzard on yoru hand is a bad idea. If your hand should become snagged on the students rig when you reach in there to solve a problem, you have just exchanged one problem for another. .

how do you know it is a giant snag hazard ? I have seen go pro hand cams presenting less hazard than any altimeter on the market. (think Viso glove mount)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[steveorino 7]

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You even said yourself that 140-some photos were un-usable. With that type of failure rate, why even take the risk?

You don't fly a handcam do you? On any handcam many photos are not of interest, because the GoPro shoots every 2 seconds. What I actually said the air shots weren't much because I didn't free hand him, and even if I did, I don't try to frame a shot. I get shots before we go up, in the plane, and as they land and with certificate. they seem to enjoy that.

Couple questions for you

Do you fly with a handcam? If so, what type? Have you seen my set up? How do you "know" it is a snag hazard??

steveOrino

[michalm21 2]

He will see it if you post a pic Just saying

[Scrumpot 1]

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Have you seen my set up?

I would be very interested in seeing it. Can you post some pictures? I am also an AFF instructor - with actually not all that much more experience than you state you have, instructing AFF - just around 300 or so AFF-I jumps. I just cannot envision much benefit of a hand-cam (especially go-pro) in/during an AFF jump is all (you say yourself that the in-air shots are mostly "useless"), but I can envision added risk/detriment - so again, for me (yes ...and I did say for ME) I agree with another poster's perspective - I don't think I would use/do it.

No need to be offended, and/or adversarial about it.

I am willing to listen/consider, and try to understand. No "Monday morning QB'ing" going on here at all. - Did I say anything at all disparaging in any way about anything really at all, to do with the jump itself? However, this is the INSTRUCTORS forum, where I did think too, that as fellow-instructors, we are/were supposed to share between us, our feedback an observation(s). So then, if we think we see something we are either not sure of - or yes (heaven forbid) - even outright disagree with ...are we supposed to just say nothing?

Sorry if you took my post as any way adversarial, and I suppose maybe I could have phrased it a bit better, so how about I apologize and we start over/try again? ...In context - - - - I was replying rather to another poster's statement/position observation, that for me I had merely (at least at 1st) agreed with.

Feel free to help enlighten me then, on the offsetting values/benefits of taking the Go-Pro up on an AFF jump as a (specifically) hand-cam. I can see it (certainly) for a Tandem. But I do think it IS worthwhile, and worthy of further discussion (and yes, possibly even "scrutiny", although I do not want you to take that as some sort of personal affront) for us now as a result of seeing this - to further discuss and consider.

You've already mentioned 2 areas/items I had not previously considered:

1. Photos of the landing(s) and
2. Photo of the presentation of the first-jump certificate

Can I/we also discuss maybe the potential down-sides / pitfalls as well, without you getting defensive? Let's try. You're right, I haven't seen your set-up at all, so maybe I am all wet, and it is me who needs a little further education on it. I'm willing to accept that.

So... Would you mind then, possibly please ...yes, please do if you would - Post up a few shots of your set up, so I/we can see it.

I promise, at least for me... I will NOT be "disparaging" - just for the sake of being a keyboard posting-prick, just out-of-hand. I really would like to see what you are using, learn (and consider) more about it ...and then if you wouldn't mind, possibly then maybe even ASK you some more questions about it, if it seems appropriate to consider more, and/or if in any way I do not understand.

I would appreciate (sincerely) your willingness to further repartee on this. I think the additional consideration, and discussion of it, CAN have value.

Thank you for at least considering it. For both our potential learning sake. How is that?

TIA, and Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[steveorino 7]

Here is the handcam pic

I also included my take on so many of the posts on dropzone.com (not necessarily yours, but so many in general) I for one no longer find it as a resource. I tried for years but I became so turned off by the pissing contest I seldom post anymore. I'm not sensitive just wanted to post a pic and story about an AFFI horseshoe mal. I thought we could learn from that ... silly me, I was wrong.

steveOrino

[davelepka 4]

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How do you "know" it is a snag hazard??

Even before I saw the pic, I 'know' it's a hazzard because every camera is a snag hazzard, as are most altimeters.

Altimeters are hard to get around. You need them, and because of that, the risk is accepted. Even then, some guys use a wrist mount as opposed to hand mount, and some guys even push a wrist mount up onto their forearm.

Cameras, sometimes, also cannot be avoided, such as when you're doing a video jump. In those cases, you need a camera to complete the jump, so you accept the risk of carrying one (or more) and most tend to make special considerations when they are wearing them.

Fast forward to my impressions after seeing your set-up, and my opinion hasn't changed, and is actaully more opposed to the idea now that I have seen the actual glove. For you to suggest that those items strapped to your hand, arranged in that fashion, allow you the freedom of movement and ability to function to the fullest extent is rediculous.

These are AFF jumps, where you may be called upon to do perform any number of tasks, with either of your hands, in any circumstance you can imagine and some that you cannot. Get your head out of your ass and take an honest look at what you're doing. Who are you trying to impress with that monstrosity?

[steveorino 7]

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Who are you trying to impress with that monstrosity?

Monstrosity??? Gimme a break. The cartoon so fits you I had to change it!

steveOrino

[ozzy13 0]

I just want to know why? If your main side that camera has no perpose at all. I guess if you are reserve side you can stick it out in front for the student and get some shots.(edited to add)but good luck getting a student to understand your hand signals. I'm from the north east and I don't do to much true AFF. It's mostly AFP. One instructor. So that would be useless for me. I wear a camera on every AFF jump I do. It's a great debriefing tool. I just don't see how that helps you. Thanks for sharing.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[steveorino 7]

SIMPLE ... I wear two gloves, I simply put the camera on my other hand when I'm main-side. I also have a camera I can wear for video on my helmet if there isn't outside video.

IF, a big IF ... it is a good student I can free hand and the 170 degree angle gets some shots worth keeping. Along with others in the plane, etc.

steveOrino

[Rover 11]

My god, look out for the snag nazis. I suggest that we all get shrink-wrapped in rubber before we jump. It could be lubricated with KY jelly to ensure that everything slips off.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[Canadianfella 0]

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SIMPLE ... I wear two gloves, I simply put the camera on my other hand when I'm main-side. I also have a camera I can wear for video on my helmet if there isn't outside video.

IF, a big IF ... it is a good student I can free hand and the 170 degree angle gets some shots worth keeping. Along with others in the plane, etc.

I'm curious to know why you jump a gopro on your hand when you can (do always?) wear a camera on your helmet for debriefing? As mentioned, it seems like an added risk for little reward... In my experience, AFF students tend to be stoked on helmet cam... good enough!

All that said, all my AFF is 1 on 1... we did AFP at my last dropzone so there was NO way I would ever put something on my hand... I never really knew when I'd have to grab on... and my alti (an N3) was always on my wrist...

While I won't castrate you for jumping such a thing, I maintain that I don't see it working for ME... ** When I took my PFF course (Canadian AFF), I was taught leg strap and shoulder of rig... NOT arm... and this is how I do AFF... I find I have more control of the student... arms move too much... But this would NOT allow for me to have a useful camera on my forward hand.

[steveorino 7]

I think you have made a thoughtful choice for you and yourself. Sound like a true professional guy. I appreciate your input!

As I said, I do wear a GoPro on helmet IF there ISN'T outside video.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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My god, look out for the snag nazis. I suggest that we all get shrink-wrapped in rubber before we jump. It could be lubricated with KY jelly to ensure that everything slips off.

+1 made my day!

steveOrino

[NewGuy2005 53]

Good job with the student, Steve. How did he take it?

[yoink 321]

Out of interest what was the debrief for the student. Is something like causing a horseshoe an automatic fail & repeat level?

Did he understand that causing the scariest mal in skydiving is bad news?