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QuoteI was in the plane during one of the final evaul jumps and there were a couple of candidates for AFFI that quite honestly, I would have put back on student status...one forgot both altimeters, one was almost in tears because they forgot to check the pilot chute and was convinced it wasn't cocked and wanted to land to check it them self, poor communication in the AC, horrible exits....on and on.
I would love to know how many jumps as coach that these folks had made. I wonder if they were folks who had few, if any, coach jumps.
I had the benefit of 50 jumps as a coach before I went to my AFFIRC. As a result, I had done all the tasks except the AFF-I freefall tasks many times with students. This made my evaluation jumps SO MUCH less stressful.
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!
QuoteHow many DZOs are out there evaluating their instructors for quality and replacing "bad" ones with "good" ones. The "cream" doesn't get a chance to rise to the top and take the slots of the "bad" guys. The "bad" guys are still there until they do something really, really stupid and only then does the DZO replace them.
Why do we have 'bad' instructors in the first place. I know there will always be 'better' instructors, but those should simply be better than the 'good' instructors, 'bad' ones shouldn't exist in the first place.
How about, like so many other things, we stop making it so easy. Here we go again, but, back in the day, the AFFJMCC was a mountain you had to climb. It was a real challenge, and prospect of being one of the 75% that FAILED the course is what drove you to practice, practice, practice before even shpwing up in the first place.
IF you managed to pass, it was a badge of honor that you earned with your blood (literally) sweat (literally) and tears (literally). I have seen all three of those bodily fluids present in the old AFFJMCC.
Aside from evaluating the skills of the candidate, making the course such an undertaking showed the maturity and ability to follow through of the candidate. It's like the idea of a college degree, you might have a degree in science but are appliying for a job in marketing, none the less, the degree itself demonstrates to the employer that you can embark on a four-year program and see it though to the end.
The new system is a joke. They teach you to be an instructor, and give you as many chances as it takes. They used to do that too, it was called jump your ass off with your local AFF Is until they said you were ready. Then you show up a week early for the AFF pre-course, and jump your ass off with the evaluators, and they tell you how and why you suck. Once that was all done, you were TESTED on your skills, with the very real possibility of FAILING in the fisrt three jumps. Game over, you go home with nothing.
The idea that the most difficult form of instruction we have in no way requires you to perform in order to get the rating is absurd. There are no re-jumps in real life, and there should be none in the rating of instructors. Come to the show ready to play in the big leagues, or don't come at all.
It's not just the skills you lose when hand out the ratings like candy on Halloween. You lose the desire and determination required to pass a difficult test. You lose the ability to work under pressure you need to get through a course that most cannot. You lose the ability to weed out those without that certain 'something' it took to go up against the best, and meet or exceed their expectations.
If you want to make it easier in order to keep the instructor ranks filled, you need to establish a mentorship program. Pass the new version of the course, and you're a JM, cleared to jump with an AFF I on two instructor jumps only. After a year or two in that capacity, you're required to attend the 'I' course, where it's do or die (not literally) and you have to perform, on the spot with no re-jumps, and you earn the 'I' rating. If you fail, you remain a JM for another year or two, and so on, and so on.
Sorry Dave, that would never work~
~makes WAY too much sense! 
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
I hate to say it, but it's just like rich kids/poor kids.
If you give a rich kid a car, let's say a Mustang, they're going to race it, beat on it, do burn outs, nto wash it, more or less treat it like crap because they didn't have to do anything in order to get it.
If you take a poor kid, who cuts lawns for five years and earns a Mustang, even a 10 year old Mustang, they're going to treat it differently then the rich kid would treat his. Years spent pushing a mower around other peoples houses is the most realistic illustration of value you could ever put on a car.
Again, back in the day, an AFF rating was a point of pride, and instructors held themselves and their performance to a higher standard. They were the best, they knew it, and they had the grit and determination to maintain and consistantly prove it.
True story- I was filming an AFF lv 3 a few years back. On one side was an old shchool guy, as solid as I've even met. The other side was a new guy, who I didn't have a strong opinion of one way or another (yet). The new guy was, however, a good 50lbs heavier than the smallish student.
Good exit, good release, the new guy drops out due to fall rate issues, never to be seen again. I took up a slot just outside of where the new guy used to be, just to cover that side for the other instructor, who of course, didn't need my help in any way.
After the jump, I commented to the new guy that maybe he should have worn his baggy tandem suit due to the size of the student, and he might have been able to stay with it. His response was 'I knew that (the other instructor) could handle it, so I wasn't worried about it'.
Another true story - I know of a DZ where they were trying to organize an AFF intructor course. They met the minimum number of participants (barely) but shortly before the course, a few of the out-of-town candidates had to drop out. The DZO walked around the DZ and picked jumpers out of the blue in order to fill out the course. These were jumpers who were aware of the upcoming course, never thought about taking it, never practiced or studied one lick, but two weeks before the course, signed up. One failed, but the other passed. This wasn't a high time 'diamond in the rough' or a natural whiz-kid, just a low time, average jumper who is now a full fledged AFF I.
If you give a rich kid a car, let's say a Mustang, they're going to race it, beat on it, do burn outs, nto wash it, more or less treat it like crap because they didn't have to do anything in order to get it.
If you take a poor kid, who cuts lawns for five years and earns a Mustang, even a 10 year old Mustang, they're going to treat it differently then the rich kid would treat his. Years spent pushing a mower around other peoples houses is the most realistic illustration of value you could ever put on a car.
Again, back in the day, an AFF rating was a point of pride, and instructors held themselves and their performance to a higher standard. They were the best, they knew it, and they had the grit and determination to maintain and consistantly prove it.
True story- I was filming an AFF lv 3 a few years back. On one side was an old shchool guy, as solid as I've even met. The other side was a new guy, who I didn't have a strong opinion of one way or another (yet). The new guy was, however, a good 50lbs heavier than the smallish student.
Good exit, good release, the new guy drops out due to fall rate issues, never to be seen again. I took up a slot just outside of where the new guy used to be, just to cover that side for the other instructor, who of course, didn't need my help in any way.
After the jump, I commented to the new guy that maybe he should have worn his baggy tandem suit due to the size of the student, and he might have been able to stay with it. His response was 'I knew that (the other instructor) could handle it, so I wasn't worried about it'.
Another true story - I know of a DZ where they were trying to organize an AFF intructor course. They met the minimum number of participants (barely) but shortly before the course, a few of the out-of-town candidates had to drop out. The DZO walked around the DZ and picked jumpers out of the blue in order to fill out the course. These were jumpers who were aware of the upcoming course, never thought about taking it, never practiced or studied one lick, but two weeks before the course, signed up. One failed, but the other passed. This wasn't a high time 'diamond in the rough' or a natural whiz-kid, just a low time, average jumper who is now a full fledged AFF I.
Driver1 0
Quote
You would be correct sir, the TI in the hanging tandem pics is Jeff Fincher. There was a bunch of those pics available before he got disciplined by USPA and he still does them. So the question remains, should he be an Instructor, TI or I/E of any kind?
No, IMO, he should not be an instructor of any kind. I would like to ask how he finished the course's required teaching?
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!
Bolas 5
QuoteIt's a Catch 22...but the market finds it's own center, what people will pay and what people will work for and what funds are available.
It's not always about the $$$ they make, particularly when someone is doing something that they love.
It's usually boils down to a perceived lack of respect or worth and the financial piece is just a part of that.
I'd be willing to bet if the people not renewing ratings were asked, a majority would say, "It wasn't just the money, it was..."
I'm in no way saying instructors should not make more, just saying that it should be seen as a start, not the solution.
"It wasn't just the money, it was..."
It's ALWAYS about the $$...eventually!
Whatever else the other "..." is, a decent living wage with some kind of benefits etc. would make it worth while to put up with.
Bust an ankle and miss a car payment and rent with no food in the box, the politics or whatever take a backseat to the $.
But I do understand what you're saying, I just think $$ is the quickest overall fix. We're talking about retention of higher quality people, many other jobs of this nature pay in significantly higher increments with experience and proven ability.
Some places are nothing more than piecework mills, burn-out from the grind is inevitable... with guarantees and incentives, maybe not so much.
I burned out on tandems because I most always got the bigger or funny shaped students, no sweat in an Otter, try it all day in a 182 with the guys with less experience taking the stick people for the same $.
A few more bone$ per body and I may have stuck it out another few years, skydiving with a sweaty Rosanne Barr clone strapped to me all weekend for the same money I could make at home in less time just isn't logistically practical no matter HOW much I loved doing it...can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Bolas 5
QuoteI burned out on tandems because I most always got the bigger or funny shaped students, no sweat in an Otter, try it all day in a 182 with the guys with less experience taking the stick people for the same $.
A few more bone$ per body and I may have stuck it out another few years, skydiving with a sweaty Rosanne Barr clone strapped to me all weekend for the same money I could make at home in less time just isn't logistically practical no matter HOW much I loved doing it...can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving!
So if they had let you take some more "normal" size people, possibly letting you teach those less experienced how to handle the "non normal" sized ones, you might not have done it longer?
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
QuoteQuoteI burned out on tandems because I most always got the bigger or funny shaped students, no sweat in an Otter, try it all day in a 182 with the guys with less experience taking the stick people for the same $.
A few more bone$ per body and I may have stuck it out another few years, skydiving with a sweaty Rosanne Barr clone strapped to me all weekend for the same money I could make at home in less time just isn't logistically practical no matter HOW much I loved doing it...can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving!
So if they had let you take some more "normal" size people, possibly letting you teach those less experienced how to handle the "non normal" sized ones, you might not have done it longer?
I would have done that anyway, they didn't want to as long as someone else was available to do it, I would have kept doing it if I felt appropriate compensation was forthcoming....but we're digressing and thread drifting. I'm just relating MY experiences and beliefs regarding 'why' some view the USPA I/E Program a sham.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Bram Clement is an excellent I/E and I think making a post about people not being qualified to hold an I/E rating and then posting a picture of him even if he's not your intended "target" is unfair and unethical. It's clear to me that you make a post slamming the whole I/E program when you are really targeting an individual.
_________________________
goat
derka jerka bukkake jihad
goat
derka jerka bukkake jihad
QuoteBram Clement is an excellent I/E and I think making a post about people not being qualified to hold an I/E rating and then posting a picture of him even if he's not your intended "target" is unfair and unethical. It's clear to me that you make a post slamming the whole I/E program when you are really targeting an individual.
I'd bet my next paycheck that he's not talking about Bram.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message
QuoteQuoteBram Clement is an excellent I/E and I think making a post about people not being qualified to hold an I/E rating and then posting a picture of him even if he's not your intended "target" is unfair and unethical. It's clear to me that you make a post slamming the whole I/E program when you are really targeting an individual.
I'd bet my next paycheck that he's not talking about Bram.
Yeah, that was cleared up a few days ago.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
QuoteQuoteQuoteBram Clement is an excellent I/E and I think making a post about people not being qualified to hold an I/E rating and then posting a picture of him even if he's not your intended "target" is unfair and unethical. It's clear to me that you make a post slamming the whole I/E program when you are really targeting an individual.
I'd bet my next paycheck that he's not talking about Bram.
Yeah, that was cleared up a few days ago.
Matt
Sorry, read it out of context.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message
I don't think that I would call it a sham...it's more like a tragedy. We've consistently allowed a rising tide of mediocrity to pervade our sport. Taking a look back to a time when S/L was the most common way totrain, becoming a S/L IE was at one time a serious undertaking and required an excemptional knowledge of just not skydiving, but rigging, aviation, and even first aid. A few years ago, I ran a S/L I course, with permission from HQ, as I'd been a S/L I for many years and had taught and dropped thousands of students. I believe I presented a solid course, butthe folks at USPA had no way of really knowing that. When there were only three AFF I/E, I think that we had control over that rating, but now that it is the accepted way of training students the need for more instructors has lead too many I/Es, and inconsistent standards amongst them. I had ten years experience before I felt ready to become an AFF JM, most of that time working in a S/L system. I now run into "instructors" with a couple years in the sport, who seem to revel in their ignorance....many of the people are not capable of advising skydivers in anything other than Category A-H (if that). They lack the experience to teach about night jumps, water jumps, high altitude jumps, to name a few. I served as an evaluator in an AFF course last spring....one candidate who washed out in two jumps went to another dz the next week....without making a single additional training skydive....and became an AFF instructor....I guess all you have to do is throw enough money at an I/E and you can be an instructor. And then there is the coach program.......
Deisel 38
All valid points and skills that an instructor should have. But I think what this revolves around is 'exactly what does a student need from an instructor?' Night jumps dont meet that standard as well as several other things you mentioned.
The IE is supposed to evaluate. If a candidate shows up and is on their game - they get a rating. If they are having a sub par day - try again next weekend. That is the system that USPA has established. So I dont think tht its the IEs that are the problem. Lets take another look at the system and good luck trying to change the one we currently have.
The IE is supposed to evaluate. If a candidate shows up and is on their game - they get a rating. If they are having a sub par day - try again next weekend. That is the system that USPA has established. So I dont think tht its the IEs that are the problem. Lets take another look at the system and good luck trying to change the one we currently have.
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.
rhys 0
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If you take a passenger who thinks they're going to the circus, and you teach them a little something about jumping, and allow them to participate and achieve some sort of success, all while taking them on the curcus ride they were expecting, you have given the cutsomer what they wanted.
At our DZ we are lucky if they have the 30 minutes to wait for thier video before they leave town...
If you live in a dusty dessert, and have locals jumping then your points are quite valid...
If you live in a town that has a population of 400 people and over a million tourists per year...
... not so much.
I let second time jumpers pull the release, all my customers control the parachute (unless the specifiaclly refuse) and I will explain my evey move to those that are interested.
The fact remains that many bucket listers are simply not interested so you are wasting your time and energy.
some just want to get over a fear of heights, some want to see the scenery, some want a rush and some are feeling too ill to even think. Don;t make these people feel inadequate...!!!! that is unprofessional. They are paying you for an experience.
A good insteructor will be able to tell whether a tandem student is interested in the sport, an asshole will try to convince someone that is simply not interested in learning to skydive that they are missing out on the best activity in the world, each to thier own.
Just like the assholes that try to convince people to buy videos after they have determined they do not want one.
It is embarresing to watch those that push thier views on customers, if they are keen they will let you know.
Respect that each individual is entitled to their own viewpoint and not every customer wantls to be an active skydiver, so respect that and DO NOT MAKE EVERYBODY FEEL AS THOUGH THEY ARE AN IDIOT IF THEY DO NOT WANT TO PULL THE CORD OR WEAR AN ALTI....
some just want to enjoy the experience without hassle.
ONCE!
If they want to learn they can sign up for an AFF Course.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
QuoteAt our DZ we are lucky if they have the 30 minutes to wait for thier video before they leave town...
If you live in a dusty dessert, and have locals jumping then your points are quite valid...
If you live in a town that has a population of 400 people and over a million tourists per year...
... not so much.
If you want to admit to being a carnival ride operator, that's up to you.
QuoteRespect that each individual is entitled to their own viewpoint and not every customer wantls to be an active skydiver, so respect that and DO NOT MAKE EVERYBODY FEEL AS THOUGH THEY ARE AN IDIOT IF THEY DO NOT WANT TO PULL THE CORD OR WEAR AN ALTI....
When did I ever suggest that you treat the student unfairly (which is think is an apt description of making one feel like an idiot for not wantng to participate in the skydive)?
I think the tone of my whole post was one of giving the student more than they expect. In some cases it's providing the service of training, and the experience of being an active part of the jump. In other cases it's being professional enough to understand that not everyone has the desire to participate in the jump.
In either case, offering the opportunity is the right thing to do as you never know who is going to be interested. Sometimes it's the middle-age housewives who are all about pulling handles, and the burly construction workeers who would rather leave things to the 'professionals'.
Even if the chance of them coming back is nil, the 'bucket listers' deserve the consideration of understanding all of their options when it comes to their jump. After all, it they're only going to jump once, you can't put off things like pulling a 'ripcord' until the next jump.
If you're going to choose for them, before even offering, in my opinion that's taking away their right to make up their own minds, and poor customer service on your part.
Instructors serve a larger purpose than just training students to skydive,they are also a resource for all skydivers....they along with the S&TA are a repository of skydiving information. One of the very first pages of theIRM lists the qualities of an instructor...they include experience and knowledge...something that I find lacking in too many of the new AFF/Is that I meet. To be sure there are some old instructors that are equally inept, but at the time they were the exception. Regarding the IE and evaluations....at what point do you stop an individual from testing....how many subpar performances should be allowed? Do we allow people to test, and test, and test, and test until they get lucky and pass? Do you want to be on the other side of a student with someone that has shown the ability to safely work as an AFF/I one tenth of the time? There is no need to look at the system....we had a perfectly functional system in place...but then it was decided that we needed more instructors and that the course was too hard so we turned the course into a joke.... Now, we have 'instructors' being given a 'license to learn' and the rest of the instructional staff has to babysit them while they actually learn how to be an AFF/I. If we were to poll the students that we work with....do you suppose that they would be in favor of more or better instructors? Your profile says you're a Marine....how many tries do they give you? If they decided that they needed more Marines....would you be pleased if they lowered the standards to do so?
Deisel 38
Well actually, they did decide that more Marines were needed (186k to 202k) and no, we didnt lower any standards. And I wont tell you how many chances someone could get. I dont want you to get concerned about national security or anything
Dont get me wrong - I think that the AFFIRC needs to be changed to reflect todays reality. When preparing for mine I had to figure out on my own who could help me train for it. And just like the opinions on dz.com, everyone has a different way of doing things. 
The time when everyone learns to be an instructor should be during the course. Why are candidates expected to train on their own and show up to be evaluated? No where else that I know of is it done this way. For any other professional rating you go to a school to learn the trade. At the end of the course you are tested. AFFIRC is just show up and test. IMO this should be changed.
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.
The time when everyone learns to be an instructor should be during the course. Why are candidates expected to train on their own and show up to be evaluated? No where else that I know of is it done this way. For any other professional rating you go to a school to learn the trade. At the end of the course you are tested. AFFIRC is just show up and test. IMO this should be changed.
Quote
It's called Instructor Examiner not Instructor instructor for a reason~
Doctors and Lawyers get their training THEN go before an evaluation 'board' to certify.
My son went to school two years to become an A&P, then comes the FAA exam to get licensed.
From Pilots to Pirates to insurance agents & welders, there are MANY jobs that you train for 'on your own' so to speak, before getting the 'OK' from a licensing organization to continue on without the oversight.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
I understand what you are saying.
I will ask you this:
How many DZOs are out there evaluating their instructors for quality and replacing "bad" ones with "good" ones. The "cream" doesn't get a chance to rise to the top and take the slots of the "bad" guys. The "bad" guys are still there until they do something really, really stupid and only then does the DZO replace them.
But! Replace them with what? How does a DZO determine that he hiring "cream" as opposed to chum.
Given your personal views on the comparative availability of "good" vs "bad", it may be more likely that the new-hire is the rotten apple that just got replaced at the other DZ.
Good point, I don't run a DZ so I'm not privy to the inner-workings of evaluation processes. I will say that at my home DZ (Spaceland) they 'seem' to have nothing BUT cream, then again it's not your 'average' dropzone to be sure.
Quick story~ I stopped at a Texas DZ (not local to me) a few years ago to make a quick one with some friends from there.
An AFF-I course was taking place and a USPA executive I've known for years was there running it.
I was in the plane during one of the final evaul jumps and there were a couple of candidates for AFFI that quite honestly, I would have put back on student status...one forgot both altimeters, one was almost in tears because they forgot to check the pilot chute and was convinced it wasn't cocked and wanted to land to check it them self, poor communication in the AC, horrible exits....on and on.
Over a couple beers later than night I was questioning said USPA exec with a few WTF's regarding people that were celebrating their passing the course?!
I may have been being a bit glib with my comments, but the answer was astounding. I got the actual break down of experienced AFFI's not renewing compared to new candidates...put that up against growth of the sport in relation to that section of training and the 'problem' was obvious. The experienced instructors are leaving faster than they can be replaced.
Like all areas of skydiving, AFFI is something you need to do a lot and often to excel...that's not always possible at smaller drop-zones and it becomes more of a hassle than it's worth to many to stay into it.
IF they made significantly more per jump that quite possibly would bring up the retention rate some, and as I said slowing that loss down would allow for higher requirements 'down-stream' to be instituted.
Things are moving pretty fast these days...as we all know jump numbers alone don't tell the story of an individuals ability. I see TM's, AFFI's & Coaches that 'I' don't believe really have the 'sport' maturity to be in the positions they are.
Slowing things down and DEMANDING high qualified candidates to even begin the process is the 'easy' way of correcting this.
But again it's a market rule of supply and demand and let's face it $$ drive the sport, no DZO is gonna turn away profits because of limited staff...so the bar is lowered somewhat to insure a steady flow into the instructional programs.
It's a Catch 22...but the market finds it's own center, what people will pay and what people will work for and what funds are available.
Difficult problem/question to be sure.
~I will add that the AFFI with the pilot chute problem has gone on to become someone I admire and respect as an instructor...it probably just took a bit more 'sport' maturity to bring that out.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
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