Andy9o8 2
QuoteThat`s what shocks me...
Some rich daddy`s little boy sprain an ankle doing tandem and daddy sues everybody at the DZ. Until you prove your innocence as you were manifest/camera/janitor you are 50K short and out on the street.
That's an exaggeration. It's not quite that simple or easy, and the cost of defending a lawsuit is generally related to the size of the suit.
In order for a case to make to trial, a judge has to review the facts of the case and determine if there's any legal precedence to the case. For example, if I tried to sue my neighbor because they look at my house too much, the case would not make it to trial because there's no law against looking at a house. In your example, a sprained ankle would not be enough of an injury to merit a trial in the face of the waiver, and the general assumption of risk when jumping out of a plane.
Let's say the student could prove negligence led to his broken ankle. In that case, he might get to trial, but all he could recover would be the cost of medical bills and something for 'pain and sufering'. Given that the injury isn't that severe, the monetary reward wouldn't be that large, and there's always the chance that they lsoe the case, and are stuck paying their lawyer on top of their medical bills.
To take it one step further, if such a case did make it to trial, the severity of the injury and size of the judgement their after would make it a very short trial, and keep the legal fees down. If that type of case did arise, you might just offer the guy $3000 or $4000 to settle the case without any of the trial or lawyer bullshit.
What's been discussed in this case is a more significant lawsuit. If a student is injured to a high degree (broken legs/back/coma/paralysis/death) the medical bills alone could top $100,000, $200,000 or $300,000 (or more). On top of that is the pain and siffering, and the loss of income during recovery or maybe the rest of their lives. If you put a guy in a wheelchair and he can't work anymore, he's going to sue you for enough for him to live on for the rest of his life. In those types of cases, with the money involved, your legal bills could top $50,000 just for you to defend yourself.
When the lawwsuit is for $500,000 or $1M, the plantiffs lawyer will do all sorts of work trying to get their cut. If they collect 30%, that's a big chunk of change, and they'll go after it like a rabid dog. On top of that, when the lawsuit is that big, the lawyers will pour on the pressure and push for a settlement. If they're suing you for $1M, and they'll settle for $300,000, the lawyer will pocket $100,000, so you can see why they invest the time and effort, and why it takes an equal amount of time and effort from your lawyer (who is billing you hourly) to defend you.
mircan 0
I was thinking more in general, because of Andy`s comments.
But OK, I got it.
QuoteIf you're a defendant in any kind of lawsuit, you can be as right as right gets, but if you can't afford the fees for an attorney to defend you, you're buggered right from the start...
Quote...So even if a skydiving defendant wins a Motion for Summary Judgment, he could easily be into more than $50,000 in legal and expert witness fees.
QuoteIn many cases the problem is not that the waiver won't hold up, but that this is a battle you cannot afford to win.
But OK, I got it.
dudeist skydiver #42
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In Reply To
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95% of plaintiffs' attorneys will...
As for the 3-5% of plaintiffs' attorneys who might take the case, it's pretty likely that they .
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86% of all statistics are made up on the spot. raff
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Especially if they're made up by people who don't have expertise in what they're talking about. I, on the other hand, have been a litigation attorney for over 25 years, so I really do know what I'm talking about when it comes to my own industry.
You are still making up a statistic and implying a reliablity of that number of +- 5% without quoting any source or study. Regardless of your esteemed litigation career, you are making numbers up. A better way to have said it would be "an overwhelming majority" or "nearly all" thus leaving 'wiggle room'. The precision you used does not stand up to scrutiny.
Just saying. 
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.
Andy9o8 2
Quotewithout quoting any source
Oh, you're right; I'm sorry.
My brain. (With a +/- margin of error of, uh... 2.87%.)
Quote
You are still making up a statistic and implying a reliablity of that number of +- 5% without quoting any source or study. Regardless of your esteemed litigation career, you are making numbers up. A better way to have said it would be "an overwhelming majority" or "nearly all" thus leaving 'wiggle room'. The precision you used does not stand up to scrutiny.
Just saying.
In the absence of a specifically defined variance, I usually assume it's 100%.
Blues,
Dave
Edit to add: I haven't completely cut all my liability exposure in skydiving, but I have stepped a long ways back from the "professional" ranks in the last two years, in large part because I like my house. Fewer jumps, more restrictive on weather/students, and I only jump my gear, and I'm the only person who does so.
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
Interestingly enough, going through the USPA's new insurance connection, they have found a carrier that says they are willing to underwrite an umbrella policy for me as an individual tandem instructor. Won't write for anyone who is part of a buisness. As an independent contractor they will cover me. Now have to wait and see what the quote is. If it's cost effective (may be a big if) for TI work I'll let everyone know as they seem to be interested in providing this to others.
aren't all TIs that are paid per jump considered independent contractor?
Quotearen't all TIs that are paid per jump considered independent contractor?
The legal standing of a TI has nothing to do with how they're paid. You can pay an employee 'piece-work', and still have them legally considered an employee. You would take care of their taxes and pay unemployment/SS to the gov on their behalf. The majority of the garment industry is structured that way, with workers being paid for the number of goods they sew.
That aside, most TIs are paid as independent contractors because most DZs don't want the hassles/overhead of actual employees, and most TIs don't want taxes taken out before they get their money. Some pay their taxes, some pay some of their taxes, and some don't pay any taxes at all. It's not legal to short (or ignore) the IRS, but it's impossible to do as an 'employee' with your employer reporting and paying taxes on your behalf.
Andy9o8 2
Quotemost TIs are paid as independent contractors
(as an aside) ...the legality of which is very much a grey area. Here's the IRS's thumbnail definition of independent contractor: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179115,00.html ... and here's the IRS definition of common-law employee: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179112,00.html
Note the distinction hinges on whether, and to what degree, the DZ retains to itself the right to "control what will be done and how it will be done" (employee), as opposed to controlling only the result of the work, but not how it's performed (contractor).
QuoteNote the distinction hinges on whether, and to what degree, the DZ retains to itself the right to "control what will be done and how it will be done" (employee), as opposed to controlling only the result of the work, but not how it's performed (contractor).
That's true, but like a contract, it's only relevant when there's a problem. In the case of DZs, I think that both parties prefer to operate as contractors/contractes, so if push comes to shove, they'll catagorize their relationship however they need to make the gov boys happy.
You could also make the argument that the work is performed to the standards of the USPA and the manufacturer, not neccesarily the DZ. Just like the plumber and electritian perform their work to the local building codes, with the contractee just being concerned that the lights will turn on and the toilets will flush.
It's all academic, of course, because DZs are hubs of under-the-table payments and illegal immigrant labor anyway.
Especially if they're made up by people who don't have expertise in what they're talking about. I, on the other hand, have been a litigation attorney for over 25 years, so I really do know what I'm talking about when it comes to my own industry.