pchapman 279 #1 July 5, 2012 When training students on the ground to do the arch there's always the problem that they are lifting the arms and legs against gravity, rather than pressing down as if against the air. Just telling students that it is easier in the air, or putting hands on shins and telling them to press down, doesn't fix the whole problem. How common is it to instead practice the arch with the student lying upside down on an elevated, padded training stand? I've heard of it being done. Any opinions on whether it is useful? Seems like it would be better for the arm and leg forces, but more awkward to lie there, and possibly making the torso arch too easy. If the upper leg (thigh) isn't supported, then the student still has to lift their entire leg to get the right position, still putting a lot of strain on the lower back. Supporting the upper leg at a correct angle (with a sophisticated training stand) would result in having only to to lift the lower leg to the right position. It isn't easy to simulate freefall forces on the body. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quagmirian 40 #2 July 6, 2012 The best training I ever had was the wind tunnel. Second to that was to lie on top of a couple of rigs, so that the reserves face each other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #3 July 6, 2012 QuoteHow common is it to instead practice the arch with the student lying upside down on an elevated, padded training stand? Sounds like it might introduce a variety of problems. Blood rushing to the head would be one, and just getting up and onto the 'stand' could be injury causing in itself. A better idea is to tell the students up-front that arching is easier in the sky. You still have to try, and you have to arch, but it doesn't cause the strain and fatigue that you feel when doing on the ground for more than 10 or 15 seconds. Once that is out of the way, you can practice things standing up, or horizontally without requiring a 'hard arch' from the student during the bulk of the practice. They do need to be somewhat arched, and they need to be able to demonstrate a good arch on command, but keep the duration down to minimize stress/fatigue. I get the rationale around 'training exactly what they're going to do', but going through a dive flow with a student straining to hard arch on a creeper isn't what they're going to be doing. Physically, they'll be using different mucsles and to different degrees while actually in freefall, so forcing them to struggle with a hard arch on the ground does nothing but fatigue your student. The hanging harness, or doing climb-outs on a mock-up, that's another story. Minus the wind blast, noise, and general fear factor, the motions are almost a carbon copy of the real thing. When it comes to freefall, you can only simulate so much (without a tunnel), so give the students a break, and ease up on the amount of time they spend arching on the ground. Disclaimer - you want them to be able to arch, and to be able to demonstrate it on command, and you should 'command' them to arch often, and expect them to be able to assume a 'good' arch immediately. That's how you know they understand the concpect and position, but pushing the issue on a creeper for extended periods of time isn't helping anyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #4 July 6, 2012 It is certainly true that making students arch hard for a long time while laying on their bellies, is very tough on them, and distracts from the other things they are learning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobMoore 0 #5 July 6, 2012 Not only does skydiving training devote much time to teach correct body position to try to develop muscle memory, you have to remember that a student also learns by using visual cues. I don't think it is wise to have them look at the world upside down."For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #6 July 6, 2012 Considering that an arch is the exact procedure to follow when a student is upside down, this suggestion may have some merit. Never done it, and not sure it's the thing to do, but the idea is interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jwynne 0 #7 July 7, 2012 Not an instructor here, but if I was going to have a student practice a reverse arch on the ground I would try it using a big exersize ball. Much better than a couple of rigs or a padded ball. It simulates the arch pretty well. I use it to strech my back and hip flexors to help with my arch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #8 July 7, 2012 The "hard arch" is IMO, not the best thing to teach, if it involves teaching a rigid position with tension through the body. The most important thing is to teach the student to be able to relax their body and let the wind and gravity do the work, because a rigid body position will only ever complicate things. Show pictures and videos of good and bad examples of body positions, use training aids to demonstrate how and object falls, and teach a position where the spine is arched with the head back, and arms and legs are RELAXED and allowed to blow back in the wind just as hair blows back in the wind, and thats probably as good as you are gonna get. Its pretty simple really, don`t over complicate things.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #9 July 9, 2012 I don't really see the point.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manchuso 3 #10 July 10, 2012 Upside down helps quite a lot; after all, you have to do a lot of effort to keep the arch on your stomach. Too much effort and you have the mind set for excess force, tension, making you forget to relax, wobbling, maybe going into a sidespin, might occur... However, in a negative position you can learn to go with the flow, using gravity as "relative wind" correcting the small problems you might find with just the right amount of tension. Arch is really a matter of what you use as a support for you back! Just my 2 cents... Happy landings, Rafael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonathan.newman 1 #11 July 16, 2012 I teach all my AFF students the "relaxed arch" on their backs. It actually simulates freefall in that all muscles can be relaxed except the quads, which are needed to keep positive pressure on the legs. We have creepers that are about 3 ft high that make this easy. I do put them on their bellies to teach the "recovery arch" that they should use if they are ever on their backs. In the military, we say to "train like you fight". And teaching the arch on their backs is the closest to freefall without a wind tunnel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #12 July 16, 2012 interesting tip. I don't see the necessity, but, every student is different though I have a standard course, I try teach to what the student(s) needs, not just the standard course. This is another option available, and if I find a situation where I think it might have positive impact, I'll try it - and be skeptical in review. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtbox 0 #13 July 19, 2012 i did it when I was a student, on a gym ball. Also laid on my belly and 'trapped' the ball between my ass and head by arching hard (ill show you what I mean next time i see you)... 10 years of cycling left my back not very 'arachable'... failed a few jumps cos I went into cycling postion straight off the strut, or maybe I was scared Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #14 July 23, 2012 Quoteinteresting tip. I don't see the necessity, but, every student is different though I have a standard course, I try teach to what the student(s) needs, not just the standard course. This is another option available, and if I find a situation where I think it might have positive impact, I'll try it - and be skeptical in review. taught a class this weekend, on a break, I tried this just for myself. I, (IMHO), just don't see any benefit here. The disorientation was just too big of a distraction vs the, admittedly more realistic, amount of effort to hold a clean arch. In other words, even as an experienced jumper, it took a LOT MORE concentration to even recognize that this was an easier arch in terms of effort - the mental distraction totally overwhelmed. But, you don't know until you test it. So I gave it a fair shot. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manchuso 3 #15 July 24, 2012 Hi Rehmwa, How could you avoid feeling disoriented? You already have the skills set and reflexes... Happy landings, Rafael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 July 24, 2012 QuoteYou already have the skills set and reflexes... You give me too much credit - clearly you haven't seen my crappy video work. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
