AFF a word of advice

[Gideon 0]

Last week we ran an AFF course for new guys, and I had a situation I never encountered before, and I need some advice.
It was a level 2, so basically jump number one with just one jumpmaster.
After exit the guy was turning towards me, and normally I don't have any problem with that, but now I couldn't stop the turn, which of course bothers me. It wasn't a spin, but more a firm turn. He was flat, but I couldn't give him proper signs to adjust his bodyposture. So stretching my own legs try to stop him, didn't work out. I've tried to push his arm upwards to countersteer with his own arm(-s), but that didn't help either. I stayed in position until he pulled his handdeploy, and he landed safely.

Do you have a word of advice to solve the issue?

Looking forward to your answer.

[Pobrause 6]

one instructor--> level 4?

Video of the jump would help for further investigation and proper advise

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To absent friends

[pchapman 279]

Pobrause

one instructor--> level 4?

Perhaps a tunnel trained student? Not sure how US AFF works but in Canadian PFF, a student with 20 minutes of tunnel can do a Level 2 that's 1:1. The original poster's profile doesn't mention location though.

[rehmwa 2]

Where do you teach and what type of training, if not officially AFF, do you guys teach?
There might be translation issue in the post so I'm trying understand what's going on here.

1 - you ran an AFF course for new guys (so you are doing Cat A's, and maybe Cat B's if they stick around for another jump)

2 - "Level 2" ??? Do you mean Cat B? If so, normally that's 2 jump masters - though I understand some modifications happen, especially with DZs with tiny planes...

3 - So you have a student in a controlled and strong turn while you are docked.....
a - he's flat, so not arched, that can generate a lot of force
b - stretching out your legs? countering a turn involves flying, digging a knee, driving, etc etc. also getting big and flat doesn't seem to be a good understanding of body flight
c - correcting an arm position to counter a turn? ok, if his arms are incorrect, this is fine, but at this point it sounds like you were guessing
d - not able to give a signal......sometimes that happens, but when they are turning into you, rather than away, there more opportunity to give signals and still control the student
e - "pulled' his handdeploy.....the verbage here is awkward, I'm questioning the whole post, sorry, lots of little indicators that make me skeptical. again, maybe it's just semantics
f - hand deploy? not a fan of this, but I understand some DZs do use it for 'new guys'

For the instructor - I think going to a tunnel and doing 'push pull' drills will help you develop more options to be much stronger with your students when needed. Maybe also consider using your head and arms for leverage to maintain control while allowing you to give hand signals.

For the student - if you can't release, then you need a couple 'signals' that can be used with your student - shaking them for arch. Emphasize how important it is to get clear eye contact so you can add smile and sticking out your tongue as a signal for them to 'relax into an arch'.

If he's flat and flight is bumpy, seriously look at his legs, wide knees (that then cause a little dearch or a flat body) is always a problem for many and affects how effectively they are able to arch.....probably the number one symptom of someone not comfortable.... someone who's knees gets wide and he tenses up when he's uncomfortable is also someone who's problem will get worse and worse as his natural reaction is then counterproductive.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

One suggestion... consider teaching students a signal for "ARCH" which does not require letting go of the grips you have on the student. We teach studets that if we shake their harness it means "Arch, Damn it!". That doesn't solve all problems, but it does help with many flat exits.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[rehmwa 2]

GLIDEANGLE

One suggestion... consider teaching students a signal for "ARCH" which does not require letting go of the grips you have on the student. We teach studets that if we shake their harness it means "Arch, Damn it!". That doesn't solve all problems, but it does help with many flat exits.

kind of a tangent, but It's funny, I've been finding that when we present it correctly, a "relax" signal results in a better arch than any "arch" signal.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gideon 0]

I am from Europe, and English is not my native language, I'm sorry.
Our students have 20 minutes of windtunnel time, and use a HDP to open their canopy. Their second AFF jump is with one JM.

Thanks for the replies so far.
An extra signal for arching and getting their attention is definitely going to be used.
Another thing that I'll keep in mind is using my head and arms to leverage.

[rehmwa 2]

Gideon

I am from Europe, and English is not my native language, I'm sorry.
Our students have 20 minutes of windtunnel time, and use a HDP to open their canopy. Their second AFF jump is with one JM.

Thanks for the replies so far.
An extra signal for arching and getting their attention is definitely going to be used.
Another thing that I'll keep in mind is using my head and arms to leverage.

thanks for the explanation. your post makes a lot more sense now - your english is better than my (insert any other language here). Good luck

another thought - if you remember. if a student gets a little head high and the instructor is holding square, then what would be a backslide can present as a strong and persistent turn (due to the instructor attached) and is difficult to square up without correcting the student's legs. But if he's turning 'towards' you, then this would be a hard forward slide, not a backslide. (that would be unusual while the backslide is very common).

either way where were his feet.



I suspect you already know this...

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[hookitt 1]

Shake him.
Arch Legs, Relax.. He should have been taught that.

Thing is, it sounds like his legs were straight out. Think about it. He's basically tracking. If it's turning toward you, then his legs must be straight out. You are the anchor and he's tracking around you.... that's why it seems like he's turning toward you. It's much easier to just go with him than try to stop him ... because he's not turning, he's just tracking

Get right next to him side by side, and track with him. Poof... no more spin/turn. You're both facing the same direction, and you're just doing what he's doing.

The best you can do is to TRY and get him arch and bend his knees a little. If he at least arches, then take what you get and sort it out on the ground.

Hope that helps.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[chuckakers 426]

Pobrause

one instructor--> level 4?

Video of the jump would help for further investigation and proper advise

Single instructor on level 4 was/is the norm in the traditional AFF program (no tandem progression). It might not be these days but as far as I know the original AFF program is still approved by USPA.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jackwallace 3]

Most important. If your student is in an uncontrolled free fall you need to open their parachute.
Sounds like your student doesn't know to look at the ground. Teach him to look at a road, not a object.

U only make 2 jumps: the first one for some weird reason and the last one that you lived through. The rest are just filler.
scr 316

[aarco 0]

I don't spell great but I'll try, .First time things for the body are hard to discribe, remember, feel,. putting yourself next to your students mind, You know,, like sitting next to someone, while doing firsts, ,,,he or she drives up to the airport, in that head at that moment, I make a turn, that breath changes with that choice. Feel and try to learn those patterns, nerilogic..on the ground there are a few, at jump time the plan has relax yet compress the event into what you know about the charactor, if you use these details , try putting yourself infront of the students body motion , just as physical as the door is closed you can not jump. As one small thing lives in the past, or lower energy factor, the other is right now, my jm
This skydive ,, me I need to pull,, if you press from that solid position to that lower energy ,, you can fill that students awarness so that their searching calmer and sooner for diveflow uniformaty, ..Many affis fly sitting up, like comp flyiers,, if that's the word, theirs a pressure feeling , like a power edge. Try this added with the details of charactor mapping and blocking plan failure with filling awarness,,but above all stay with what works and stay safe..

Having something never beats doing (>|<)
Iam building things - Iam working on my mind- I am going to change this world - its what I came here 4- - -