Parachutist Back inside Cover

[jlmiracle 7]

AFF Instructors.

Anyone else see the the problem with the picture on the back inside cover of Parachutist this month and the fact that they are using it for sports promotion?

Why is main side still hanging on?

Maybe its really not an AFF jump but it sure looks like one. I realize no one is perfect, but publishing that picture as a sports promotion is wrong.

Does someone at the USPA who "knows better" not review this stuff?

Yes, I have brought this to the attention of my Regional Director.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[peek 21]

jlmiracle

Anyone else see the the problem with the picture on the back inside cover of Parachutist this month ...

When I saw it, I thought that it surely must be a "setup" with an experienced jumper acting as the "student" because there are such obvious weird things about it! If not, well ...

[xijonix 0]

The same photo is on the cover of the new IRM and the description says,

"At skydive Elsinore in California, Joe Montreal and Claire Sobba observe student Thomas Hinson deploying during his first AFF skydive."

[pchapman 279]

jlmiracle

Why is main side still hanging on?

I think I've seen this sort of thing debated before -- I guess it is US AFF practice for the main side to let go earlier.

The photo didn't seem an issue to me, as I'm used to my local system, Canadian PFF, where both instructors hold on until the student is lifted away from their grip. (The main side still tries to give the student room for a good pilot chute toss; backing off should help with reducing the large burble too.)

Therefore I don't see anything wrong safety-wise at all.... But if one wants to argue it on the basis of instructional standards by the organization involved, that's fine.

[kimemerson 7]

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Main side Instructor is wrong per se, but if that's a U.S. AFF jump then it is not what we are taught or expected to do. And if not doing what you are expected to do can be considered "wrong" then there you have it. But the thing is is that this "wrong" photo is a featured photo in the publication of the association that teaches not to do just that. And no one has even mentioned those damn flapping straps not stowed away.

[ufk22 33]

The picture itself is a great action shot.
In terms of why both instructors are still there, I won't be too quick to judge. The student might have been a handful. I've had single-side jumps where I only let go of an arm and opened up after the pilot chute was out because I didn't want the student going wacko during deployment (so unstable and trying to turn away from me that I couldn't let go for hand signals). Doesn't happen often, but it happens.
Putting it on the cover of the IRM??????
That's a whole nuther matter...

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[normiss 798]

I've jumped student gear that refused to keep the leg straps tucked.

[kimemerson 7]

So have I but I sure as hell work on a solution and do my best to never have it happen twice. And there are solutions to this. No real need to have it happen at all.

Part of me is just confounded by USPA going to press with this particular photo. They could have done better as I'm certain there's no shortage of USPA compliant photos out there.

[nolhtairt 0]

kimemerson

So have I but I sure as hell work on a solution and do my best to never have it happen twice. And there are solutions to this. No real need to have it happen at all.

Part of me is just confounded by USPA going to press with this particular photo. They could have done better as I'm certain there's no shortage of USPA compliant photos out there.

There have been plenty of questionable pictures that have gone to print in Parachutist that have left us scratching our heads... I don't think they give a fuck what we think.

[kimemerson 7]

nolhtairt

There have been plenty of questionable pictures that have gone to print in Parachutist that have left us scratching our heads... I don't think they give a fuck what we think.

Yep. Photos of people jumping shoeless, helmet-less, altimeter-less... Not that these things really matter much to me. I've jumped plenty of times without any of these items. I sort of think that if it were me trying to tell people what not to do that at least I wouldn't promote through full color photos those very practices I discourage in policy. Personally I couldn't care less about that photo. If it had been in Blue Skies I doubt it would make the same impression on me.

I appreciate and respect consistency in people, politicians (dream on) and others. At times it doesn't even matter whether I agree with what anyone says, so long as they remain true and consistent with themselves. My head gets a lot of scratching courtesy USPA.

[nolhtairt 0]

Agreed. All you can really do is control the things you can control. If you're teaching a student and you see something wrong with a pic in Parachutist, point it out and ask if they see anything wrong, if not, then you can explain it to them as if to say "This may look cool, but it doesn't mean you should do it" or whatever fits the situation.

[douwanto 22]

Is it likely the person on the Parachutist staff who is choosing these photos that has no skydiving experience or limited experience and the editor is not editing very well?

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[JohnMitchell 16]

pchapman

I guess it is US AFF practice for the main side to let go earlier.

I'm used to my local system, Canadian PFF, where both instructors hold on until the student is lifted away from their grip.

Interesting. I recently heard a newly minted U.S. AFFI tell me that USPA is now teaching "both sides ride through". I never got the memo, so I've kept tracking off after a good pilot chute throw..

[TMPattersonJr 0]

Yup these days we are being taught, and teach both sides open up and ride through deployment just as you see it here.

Blue SkiesBlack DeathFacebook
www.PLabsInc.com
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[peek 21]

TMPattersonJr

Yup these days we are being taught, and teach both sides open up and ride through deployment just as you see it here.

Where did that come from? Staff discussion and agreement? DZO decision? AFF Standardization meeting?

I have not heard much about that.

[jimjumper 25]

Why not put the IRM on the USPA website and then everybody would know and have the reference for it? We've only been doing AFF since '83. Is it a secret?

[peek 21]

jimjumper

Why not put the IRM on the USPA website and then everybody would know and have the reference for it? We've only been doing AFF since '83. Is it a secret?

From the July 2017 USPA BOD meeting draft minutes: "The S&T committee decided to make the IRM available for as a download on the next release of the updated publication. Now both the SIM and the IRM will be available at no cost to the membership. Projected date Jan 2018."

The minutes are awaiting approval, so I have given you advanced and not-yet-approved information, but I don't think anyone is going to suggest that this information is incorrect.

By the way, it has always been my opinion that the IRM should have always been on the web site for download.

My questions to Mr. Patterson remain and are somewhat unrelated to this anyway.

[ufk22 33]

Can't I also ask who taught you that?
I was an evaluator for an AFF course in May run by the chair of Safety and Training committee and that was definitely NOT taught.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[billvon 2,991]

>Why is main side still hanging on?

Could have been a problem student or an equipment problem. I've ridden through as main side a few times just because it would have been more dangerous to let go.

[peek 21]

billvon

>Why is main side still hanging on?

Could have been a problem student or an equipment problem. I've ridden through as main side a few times just because it would have been more dangerous to let go.

I agree that this technique is helpful for some situations, but as we all know, having one instructor leave to reduce the burble is usually a good idea. (I have seen pilot chute hesitations from both instructors being there.)

I have yet to hear from Mr. Patterson about what they are doing and why.

I checked with a very active AFF IE when the original post was made, and he told me that "main side leaves after pilot chute is thrown" is what is being taught.

And there is this thing called an "AFF Standardization Meeting" where things like this should be decided upon. If there is an Examiner teaching "both instructors hang on" then they would seem to be operating "off the grid".

[kaiser 19]

It appears to me that the reserve side instructor isn't flying his slot.So the main side instructor is doing all the work.
Reserve side looks to just be hanging on for the ride.

[raff 4]

jlmiracle

AFF Instructors.

Anyone else see the the problem with the picture on the back inside cover of Parachutist this month and the fact that they are using it for sports promotion?

Why is main side still hanging on?

Maybe its really not an AFF jump but it sure looks like one. I realize no one is perfect, but publishing that picture as a sports promotion is wrong.

Does someone at the USPA who "knows better" not review this stuff?

Yes, I have brought this to the attention of my Regional Director.

Judy

A lot of sanctimonious stuff herein. In the early days of AFF, many student rigs were equipped with cable handles which when pulled, released a spring loaded pilot chute. These had the tendency to bounce around in the student's burble now and then. The remedy was to teach "Arch, Look, Reach, Pull, Check, Check [during which the student was to rotate his/her upper body somewhat to wash the pilot out from behind.]". Additionally, the MS JM was to release providing an asymmetric airflow across the formation. Almost everyone, I'm guessing, has now progressed to BOC throwouts rendering the MS release unnecessary, as well as the "Look" portion of the pull sequence. I kind of like the idea of the MS being there for the occasion which anyone with any experience has seen (If you haven't seen this, you will.): Student holding onto the throwout! YAY!

While I'm at it, we all owe a huge debt of gratitude to Ken Coleman, while I'm at it.

If you leave the plane without a parachute, you will be fine for the rest of your life.

[peek 21]

raff

Additionally, the [main side instructor] was to release providing an asymmetric airflow across the formation.

To reduce the overall burble is my understanding. Perhaps small semantic differences.

Quote

I kind of like the idea of the [main side instructor] being there for the occasion which anyone with any experience has seen: Student holding onto the throwout!

But of course. They stay until the pilot chute is released, then they leave to reduce the burble.

I think that perhaps you have just not experienced a huge hesitation with an AFF student's pilot chute in the burble. Me and my very big jumpsuit will cause it if I don't leave.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just providing some info about what I have experienced.

[BKS60 0]

This conversation ties in with one several of us were discussing last week at the DZ. I like the idea of the MS riding through also as long as altitude permits in case of a bag lock or something similar. It seems it would be easier for the MS instructor to pull the main cutaway if needed. Maybe a hard deck limit.
Not advocating changing protocol without a consensus and thorough discussion. But would like to continue the discussion.

Gary maybe we can get a jump together on one of your next visits.

"You don't get many warnings in this sport before you get damaged"

[fincher 0]

Who gives a fuck? Are you really going to backseat critique these guys? Even if that isn't standard it's not unsafe. Instructors need to modify and improvise all the time in the real world. Also different dz's still have some slight personalization of aff routines. Or they may have done it for the pic. And you went snitching to a regional director about it?? I'm sure the regional director is like " so fucking what?" But still. Good grief. This is one of the pettiest dumbest post I've ever seen on here from a supposedly experienced skydiver.

i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down