Tunnel Camps Options - Need Recommendations

[tdog 0]

Ok – so here is the deal… I searched this site for comments about the different tunnel camps – but most of the posts were “so last year” before the new tunnel locations were open… So, I am looking for fresh information.

As you can see by my profile – I have 16 jumps… Not a lot… But my AFF went real smoothly, and post AFF I have given myself learning objectives to practice on every jump that I have nailed without feeling frustration… I am gonna be working with coaches at the DZ on tasks to get my A – but I think I want intense tunnel coaching soon…Two reasons why:

1) If I was to fly 1 hour (60 jumps) at the DZ with a coach, I think I would be broke. It would cost over 3X as much, and the ground school would be inferior to the curriculum I see on the different tunnel camp websites. Ad the video, and I would have to rob a bank. Plus, some of the guys at the DZ said I should do tunnel time, because logically, “the tunnel does not lie, if you sink, you hit the floor”…

2) I am finding myself learning “new tricks” that may be actually “bad habits”… For an example – on one of my last dives I turned 180 degrees very quickly (like, boom I am there) and nailed the heading I wanted… But then I thought, “wow, did I just do that with my feet??? Or did I just use my whole torso? Whatever I did, I did not use my hands, and it worked, but I wish I had a video to know how I did it…” If I continue to allow my body to find new ways of accomplishing the same tasks, I am sure some of my self-learned tricks I will have to un-learn…

For a frame of reference of my goals – I want to hone my belly skills to the point that my skills will be respected and I will be invited to jump with somewhat experienced jumpers… Nothing competitive, something like, “On load 13 we are doing a…. Wanna join?” After I get this goal accomplished – then freefly…

Without making a plug – the Arizona Airspeed camps in Feb/March look intriguing…

Thoughts? Do my reasons to get tunnel time make sense? Structured camps vs. tunnel time with coaches? Realistic expectations for a 1 hour fly time camp? Pay more to do 1.5 hours – or is that just too much in three days? If I was to get another 20 jumps in before the camp, what skills should I nail in the air with local coaches to make the camp most rewarding?

To prevent this forum from getting to commercially endorsed, I welcome PM on the subject if you rather not post…

Thanks,

T.

[Ron 10]

You have the right idea and realistic goals.

You can't really go wrong with any camp with good Instructors. Airspeed are some of the best.

Just ask folks that have done tunnel camps, and have fun.

Tunnel is never NEEDED, but when your basics are good, it gets more fun.

Here are some student comments from one of our camps.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1314150#1314150

But really any camp that has a good record will be great. Airspeed, Perris has camps now, AS will have camps in AZ soon, NSL has cammps, we have camps, and many others. Get with people who have done camps and ask what they thought.

Like I said, have fun no matter who you choose.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[davelepka 4]

Spend your money on real jumps, with a ground based canopy coach. Learning to fly a canopy is far more important than fine tuning your freefall skills. If you are able to achieve a stable deployment position in freefall, you have the survival skills you need to get through freefall. Landing your canopy is a complex and important skill which should be your number one priority.

At 16 jumps, you can count on needing your canopy control skills on every jump you make for the rest of your life. If after 100 jumps you should get into freeflying, or swooping (hop n pops) your tunnel training will be of little value to you.

[diablopilot 2]

I'd recommend the Perris Perfomance Plus tunnel camps headed by Dan BC. You'll be sure to find some others on here that enjoyed the camp. I recommend it as it's the one I've just participated in a mini version of.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Merkur 1]

I did my first tunnel camp after about 50 jumps and I don't want to miss it.
It was a 90 min 3 day camp and a couple of the participants where really tired at the last day - so it depends a little bit on your personal fitness how many time you want to go for. The good thing about a camp compared to coached tunnel time once in a while is, that it is easier to train muscle memory because of the more repetition you have in a short time.
The later you start getting coached - whether in tunnel or in actual jumps - the more time you will probably need to get rid of bad or not effective body positions.
I also agree on getting a good knowledge about canopy piloting but from my experience this is easier to train on your own - I am not talkin about swooping - "just" about the basic skill set to handle your canopy properly to do safe landings.
Have fun
M.

vSCR No.94
Don't dream your life - live your dream!

[btucker 0]

Tunnel. It takes away all the rush, you do two minute sessions. A quick debrief, a short wait and your back in the air again. You coach can communicate and give you feedback even while your in the air.

I would recommend a structured camp, you have that camp comradeship -> you'll have a ball. On all of my camps there have been low time jumpers (<100) occasionally you'll find someone still doing AFF! Most structured camps have extra time options where you can do what you want, be it: 1 on 1 with a coach or playtime -> backflying, walking, running up the walls, you name it...

I been to three airspeed camps @ orlando and one danbc one @ perris. I would highly recommend both in a second.

Have a look at the programs the camps offer, some of the camps I did where centered on body mechanics – ie. You'll be shown and then coached in the best way to, say, do a side slide then do a bunch of reps. In other camps we concentrated on 4way skills and drilled blocks.



Things to consider / tips:
Time Of year: Summer in orlando suxs: Cheap accommodation was hard to find and the town was packed full of freaks and the tunnel had gnarly air in it – lots of drop outs and felt like a giant hairdryer. Low temps in the tunnels can also be interesting – the air is awesome, but it's freaking cold!

Duration: 3days. Two is not enough, any more and you could be too tired.

Fitness: Even three days takes it out of you. Stretch and exercise everyday for two weeks before the camp.

Money: In both camps I did significant amounts of extra time – bring money.

The Perris Tunnel, when I was there didn't operate between 11:45 and 18:15 due to California peak power prices. This may have been a temporary measure only in summer? Losing 6.5 hours a day could be good or bad – good because you can jump - your at a dropzone!


Someone else said don't forget you canopy skills, you can't do a bunch of jumps if you pound in and your about to make a big investment in you.


Blue Skies, Phat Air, Benno




PS: A full face helmet for the tunnel would be a good thing. BTW: I'm told (reliably?) that jumping with a full face is not such a good idea if you have sub C license.

Blue Dreams Benno

[tdog 0]

Thanks all for the advice... I have received a few PMs too... You can keep them coming if you want, but I wanted to show my appreciation by saying thank you now…

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I would recommend a structured camp, you have that camp comradeship -> you'll have a ball

I work at a company owned by my mother and I... I told the guys I might be going to "camp"... They changed my outgoing message on my voicemail to: "Hi, I cannot come to the phone right now, I am at camp. If you need anything, you have to call my mother."

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Someone else said don't forget you canopy skills, you can't do a bunch of jumps if you pound in and your about to make a big investment in you.

This is a recurring theme... Yes I know to spend energy on the canopy skills... I am a little farther along in my canopy skills since took a lot of coaching in flying another parachute-like ram-air wing, a paraglider - and have, as Brian Germain calls it, "learned from the greatest teacher, Incredible Physical Agony" while under my paraglider. I was lucky not to be broken when I should have been dead. Faced with the same scenario last weekend under a skydiving canopy, I landed safely on my tip-toes, proving one lesson learned, one trillion to go.


Thanks again.

[skykittykat 0]

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If after 100 jumps you should get into freeflying, or swooping (hop n pops) your tunnel training will be of little value to you.

IMHO, I disagree. Both disciplines complement each other. Both require an awareness of flying your body which will help out with the other.

Have you ever seen Omar fly on a rw jump? He is awesome as are other top freeflyers flying on their bellies. Why would that be?

Liz

[davelepka 4]

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If after 100 jumps you should get into freeflying, or swooping (hop n pops) your tunnel training will be of little value to you.

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IMHO, I disagree. Both disciplines complement each other. Both require an awareness of flying your body which will help out with the other.

Have you ever seen Omar fly on a rw jump? He is awesome as are other top freeflyers flying on their bellies. Why would that be?

You can look at the statement as you quoted it, and argue the merits of RW skills as applied to freeflying. Maybe.

OR, you can look at the entire post, and the spirit of what I was saying. I stand by the fact that at 16 jumps, his time, money and effort should focused on canopy control, and making actual skiydives. Mastering centerpoint turns should not be on his 'to do' list just yet.

The only jump you won't need canopy control skills for is your last.

[daveb 1]

My son, who has yet to exit an aircraft in flight, has been to two wind tunnel camps. He has a very good understanding of the basics of freefall: stability, directional control, body awareness, and fall rate. It's not a waste on him; once he starts skydiving, I expect he'll breeze through AFF and the student program, and only need to work on altitude awareness and canopy flight skills. That will make it much easier for him to focus on the canopy control portions of the class since he will not have to put much emphasis on the freefall portions. I've watched people with 4 jumps and having difficulty in AFF learn in the tunnel and subsequently ace the remainder of the student program. Ditto those just off student status having trouble flying with others.

The tunnel is not just about center point turns, although this is a valuable skill. A big part of skydiving is relative work, be it vertical or flat. I very much disagree that learning and practicing freefall skills in the tunnel should be postponed. A tunnelcamp with a qualified coach is a good idea no matter how many jumps you have.

Nor should canopy control be neglected. Get good coaching -- not just a friends' advice -- on the fundamental skills and learn to save your life in a variety of less-than-ideal situations. This is also a good idea no matter how many jumps you have. Ignore canopy flight lessons at your own peril.

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The only jump you won't need canopy control skills for is your last.

... which could happen if you become unstable at pull time and become entangled, or you don't get sufficient separation from another and collide, or lose altitude awareness because you're so focused upon a move or attempting to become stable in the first place, or .... Belly-to-earth control skills are every bit as vital as canopy control skills - you use both on each and every jump you make.

[NeedToJump 0]

Obviously the tunnel will not teach anyone canopy control skills but I believe it can still assist in setting up a student to learn canopy control. It will help out the student with the freefall portion of the jump so once the student is under canopy he will be confident from having a good skydive. I think this will set the student up for having an easier time under canopy.

Think of it this way: if a student is unstable and cannot turn in the air and thinks that he had a horrible jump, those feelings will still be with him under canopy. Would you rather have an upset student or confident student under canopy?

There is a huge mental aspect to all parts of skydiving. The tunnel, in addition to helping freefall skills, will help give a student more confidence in his / her abilities.

I definitely think that everyone should get canopy coaching as well.

Just my thoughts

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[davelepka 4]

If your son is too young to jump, by all means, it's tunnel time. My boy will be in there before he's 8.

The jumper in question, however, is an (almost) license skydiver, and having passed AFF, his abilty to be stable, and pull on his own have been established. As we all know, the canopy training in the AFF program is very minnimal, at best. As a perosn who will be making actual parachute decents, the value of additional training in canopy control cannot be measured. Open canopy incidents have been doing the most damage to skydivers for several years running, and that is simply not acceptable.

[tdog 0]

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A tunnelcamp with a qualified coach is a good idea no matter how many jumps you have.

Thanks for all the advice you guys have given me... I am signing up this week... And for the canopy control stuff, well there is a workshop taught locally. I am signed up for that too, and have talked with one of the instructors about when the next class is being offered...

Thanks again.

[davelepka 4]

Your opinion is that it will boost his confidence. How about the concept of shifting his focus away from a skill set that he will use on EVERY jump, and one who's lacking has caused the majority if incidents for the several years running?

Anyone, making any sort of jump, is open to have a horrible skydive. In the wake of such a jump, while under canopy is not the time to have to 'learn' good canopy control. Get the training out of the way first, so when the inevitable bad jump comes up, navagating yourself safely down is second hand.

I'm not aginst tunnel training, but I think 16 jumps is a little early to sign up for a tunnel camp. The time and cost are much better spent (at that level) on some canopy coaching. If the guy can afford both, go for it. Or how about canopy coaching in Deland, with a night trip to split an hour in the tunnel with a couple other guys? That would be aton of fun, and get him some tunnel time as well.

It just seems like his focus at this early satge is a bit ahead of where it should be.

[Paulipod 0]

I know I can be acused of bias here, however I have and remain to be a jumper! (inital disclaimer... )

I used tunnel time during and after AFF. For me its simple....

The more stuff I can learn on the ground (or in a tunnel) the more time in my 60 second jump I have to learn the stuff I can only learn in the sky.

If funds are not an issue.... tunnel time adds safety not danger IMHO. I think this because if the first time I try to learn a skill is in the sky, my mind is occupied at that as well as normal safety checks.

Personally dont buy into the idea that just because someone knows how to fly they will be any less altitude aware than anyone else with equal jump numbers.

As was mentioned prior, focus on altitude and jumper awareness has to be easier when you can fly already? I find it easier for sure to learn one thing at a time.

However, I have to also say that on limited funds it would be the weather that made my choice

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[davelepka 4]

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The more stuff I can learn on the ground (or in a tunnel) the more time in my 60 second jump I have to learn the stuff I can only learn in the sky

Thanks for making my point for me. After your 60 seconds of freefall ends, the task of making a safe parachute decent begins.

I did say if he's got he bucks, go all out and do both, and weather is certainly a factor, but when you sign up for a tunnel camp weeks or months in advance, you're nailing down your priorities right then.

Again, I've got nothing against tunnel training, but if you intend to make actual skydives, get your surviaval skills in order first, work on turning points second.

[tdog 0]

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As we all know, the canopy training in the AFF program is very minimal, at best. As a perosn who will be making actual parachute decents, the value of additional training in canopy control cannot be measured. Open canopy incidents have been doing the most damage to skydivers for several years running, and that is simply not acceptable.

Davelepka,

Our posts crossed in the mail, meaning I did not see this post until after my last post... Then you posted again before I got this all typed… So…

As I said, I am very excited about working with some great coaches on canopy control. I am trying to get a well-respected nationally known coach to visit our DZ for a class too, to supplement the local guy’s classes.

I agree, after learning paragliding (where I am just a novice too), where 100% of the paragliding training is on canopy, I found some gaping holes in AFF that were so fundamental in paraglidng we never left the ground until we had them nailed. Even after landing a canopy of some sort over my head many more times than my skydiving #s show, I KNOW I need more training to be safe and live long. But, don’t all we? Who ever gives up learning?

But, I want to work on both canopy control and freefall skills, since each is something I can learn and practice together, not on the same day or with the same instructor, but on every jump after the respective class. The reason why I did not talk about canopy control in this thread originally is because the discussion group is titled “Wind Tunnels” not “Wind Tunnels and Canopy Skills.” In spite of that, you do have some very valuable points that I respect a lot. I welcome your canopy views, and actually, since a good friend of mine died under a beginner paragldier canopy, I know first hand how important it is to control the one thing that saves your life on every jump. I think, if you would meet me in person, you would find we are on the same page and have the same priorities.

That is my decision, and I am sticking to it. Instead of choosing one or the other, I am doing BOTH! If I had to pick one over the other, I probably would choose canopy first.

With respect,

T.

[davelepka 4]

It didn't come up unitl later in the thread, but if both is an option, by all means, go with that.

I tend to see many newbies become so infatuated with the freefall skills, they pay no attention to their canopy control. They go on to downsize based on jump numbers alone (usually too few jumps in my opinion), and this is where their lacking in skills becomes apparent.

[NeedToJump 0]

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How about the concept of shifting his focus away from a skill set that he will use on EVERY jump, and one who's lacking has caused the majority if incidents for the several years running?

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I tend to see many newbies become so infatuated with the freefall skills, they pay no attention to their canopy control. They go on to downsize based on jump numbers alone (usually too few jumps in my opinion), and this is where their lacking in skills becomes apparent.

I completely agree with both statements and see your point. I'm coming from the perspective of seeing AFF students go through the standard AFF program and a tunnel AFF program and I have seen better all around success (including canopy control) from tunnel AFF in general. I believe it is because the tunnel training sets the student up for success during the freefall portion of the skydive which transfers to confidence under canopy. The student is then able to focus completely on the canopy control and not dwell on the messed up skydive.

I think in an ideal world (with egos kept in check and students listening to the experienced skydivers out there) that this is the way to go. However, we've all seen too many students think they they're special and downsize too quickly and get hurt.

I think that both tunnel training and canopy coaching early on is the way to go. If it has to be one or the other than I completely agree with you that canopy coaching is more important both for the individual's safety as well as the safety of everyone else in the sky.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[davelepka 4]

I agree 100% with a tunnel aspect to an AFF program, and any DZ close enough to a tunnel to do so would be foolish not to.

This situation was different, in that this jumper was post AFF, and unsupervised in his ongoing education. During an AFF course, the structure of the course, and the instructors ensure that the tunnel training plays it's role, AND that the other aspects of the program are not ignored.

This jumper was on his own, and contemplating a tunnel camp. Considering the intensive training and focus offered in a tunnel camp, it's easy to see how a jumper could loose his focus on other, important, skills a new jumper needs to develop.

[Ron 10]

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I'm not aginst tunnel training, but I think 16 jumps is a little early to sign up for a tunnel camp

I don't agree. Tunnel is a fast way to get better at RW. That makes a safer skydiver.

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The time and cost are much better spent (at that level) on some canopy coaching.

Again, I don't agree. YES canopy flight needs to be worked on. But there is no reason that tunnle should not be done at a lower level.

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It just seems like his focus at this early satge is a bit ahead of where it should be.

Yep, but most students are like that. Everyone wants to turn points, or fly a pocket rocket it seems.

Most accidents are people pushing the edge to hard. They should back off a bit and live long enough to do anything they want in time.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mouth 0]

I've done two camps. One with Touch of Magic and one with Airspeed.

I definitely plan to do another Airspeed camp soon as I had a blast and learned so much. The gang was so patient and would work with you to make sure you got exactly what you needed. Actually I am hoping we can get our original tunnel group back together for a reunion this summer.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[rehmwa 2]

I don't see why training is an either/or proposition. Every skydive where you open your parachute, it's important to forget the dive for the next few minutes and focus on learning and improving canopy skills. Worry about the freefall when you land. If you can't do that, then don't jump and just be a tunnel rat.

But that has nothing to do with taking a tunnel camp. The only issue I see is if a stupid newbie is good in freefall and automatically thinks they are a great swooper as a result. However, that person is an accident waiting to happen eventually anyway. If not for one reason, they'll be arrogant and hurt themselves for another.

As far as camps, one NSL camp when they came out, an NSL camp arranged through www.tunnelcamp.com, and the last one we privately arranged a camp with a great coach (Chromy) and he arranged for a couple others to also teach. Every single camp was a blazing success for everyone involved.

The big thing is to go in recognizing that it is a learning experience for you whether you have 10 jumps or 10,000.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Avion 0]

I decided to acquire freefall skills in a tunnel before I started jumping. I wanted to remove the stress of having to figure out how to move around while at the same time keeping track of all the other suff in AFF, circles of awareness etc...

After reading the skydivers handbook, I realized I'm clueless as to how to land a canopy. I comprehend what book says about the landing pattern, and flairing, I just lack a feel for what that means.

Some people have suggested doing a tandem first. I have considered traveling to Cleveland to train on a canopy similulator, like president Bush did. After all, he ended up doing a perfect standup landing his first time.

I've read the canopy survival skills article here, understand what flat turns and flair turns mean, and I am still concerned about landing a canopy.

So, what do you all suggest as canopy skills to be mastered by a new jumper?

[tomhendersonfl 0]

I just began skydiving a few weeks ago by taking a 3-day weekend in Orlando. For the first day and a half I did a mini-tunnel camp put on by Joey Jones at SkyVenture. All together I did about 45 minutes in the tunnel. Then I did my AFF ground training and first 4 jumps at Deland.

I found that the tunnel training was great preparation for the AFF course. After being in the tunnel, I found the real thing to be incredibly easy. I was totally comfortable in the air, and was thus able to concentrate completely on getting a good deployment, canopy control and landing. All of the AFF required maneuvers were very easy in the air compared to doing them in the tunnel.

As many people have pointed out, the tunnel really magnifies mistakes in body position. When I started in the tunnel, I just couldn't keep my legs on the same plane, and it took nearly all my tunnel time to correct this. I feel that if I hadn't had the tunnel time, this would have made my real flying a lot more difficult.

I would also like to say that Joey was great. I used five different coaches to get through my first 7 jumps, but none of them gave me the kind of attention that Joey did. He was the only one who was able to really give me an understanding of how the wind reacts with the body and affects your flight. There aren't many world champions in any discipline who will take that kind of time and effort with an absolute beginner.