Wind Tunnels...a passing fad?

[NelKel 0]

We've been waiting for one to get started for over a year over near NASA, and it seems like I read recently of another in the Houston area that made plans but never broke ground.<<<


This is what I heard. They set up an outdoor type at NASA and some jumpers got oil on there jump suits and started bitching. There were further omplications with liability and funding for a real tunnel.

The last thing I heard was SPACELAND was going to break ground on one after they compleated paving of the runway. Who knows?

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Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[skykittykat 0]

Ok, without reading all the replies to this and only taking the subject line as read....

UntamedDog is a troll who has been banned from dz.com before under a different name and has previously slandered a very good friend of mine who is respected in the skydiving world..., however this thread he/she started does have merit for an ongoing discussion (much as I hate to admit it).

Tunnels have transformed skydiving for the better and they also bring in more people to the sport.

All the tunnels that are operating at the moment ARE attracting people to the sport of skydiving.

Tunnels are not a fad and they do have an important role to play in recruiting new skydivers, plus making existing skydivers better flyers in a shorter amount of time, which can only be a good thing.

Bedford and Airkix in the Uk will transform UK skydiving for the better.

Liz

[paraman1 0]

"Are wind tunnels a waste of time or even just a passing fad?"

In my view no, i'm English and have the misfortune of having the British climate to contend with - we now have 2 south central windtunnels, Bodyflight at Bedford and Airkix at Milton Keynes.

These 2 establishments have provided a whole new dimension to UK skydiving, especiallyfor the student and formation teams ........... ther eis also the aspect of wuffo involvement, and I believe that many of these wuffo's will go on to take up the sport itself.

If as is common, the clouds are over - the UK is grounded and staring up at the skies waiting for a miracle is pretty disheartening. I believe that the windtunnels have been the biggest break through in the sport since the development of the square canopy and will be with us und improving until the end.

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[paraman1 0]

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If every tunnel that is on the Skyventure list gets built I have a really hard time believing that the whuffo market could substain them all.

Hi Phreezone
A thing to remember is that for every 1 person that makes the trip to a distant windtunnel, there will be many more that did not, and as well as those people - there are others that do not even know these thing exist.

If a tunnel were available to me locally (as it is now, i'm in London) then I would be inclined to go more often as the travelling would be prohibitive and so on.

Now all I have to do is stop being such a fat b/stard and get flying again and finish AFF

[tbrown 26]

Somebody needs to housebreak this dog....and maybe FIXED as well !!

What I saw at Perris today was 5 - 10 year old kids learning how to SKYDIVE. And they pick it up really quick. They're good at it and they really love it.

Now just look ahead 8 - 13 years, when these kids are old enough to put a rig on their backs and jump from an airplane. They're going to HUMILIATE us because they'll already be so good. All they'll need to learn at that point is safe parachuting, things like altitude awareness, emergency procedures, and canopy control. All the rest, like 4 Way or Freeflying will already be old hat, they'll just have the sky to play in instead of a small glass and steel chamber.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[mdrejhon 8]

This bears worth mentioning again. It's the price of windtunnels that is currently at an equilibrium of the lack of windtunnels in North America, the skydiver clientile, and them being booked nearly constantly. It's better to keep prices twice as high and have 80% capacity, than to have prices half price and have 100% capacity.

I have a friend who regularly did the Aerodium wind tunnel in Quebec in 1979 -- yes, 1979 -- I understand this was the first VWT in North America. He told me he and his friends spent a shockingly expensive $25 per hour for the use of this outdoor windtunnel. I told him it costs at least $600 per hour, minimum, nowadays. Needless to say, I had to pick up his jaw from the bottom of the crater in front of him.

Once the windtunnel capital is paid off, there is still room for windtunnel profit even at a 50% discount -- the electricity isn't that expensive yet (at least during off-peak). Most people are only eating half a megawatt, even if the motors can run at over a megawatt of electricty. Motors could get more efficient in the future, and maintenance requirements is going down. More reliable, less money to run. Once the costs are really established over a decade, windtunnels will be more comfortable at reducing prices slightly if there is a market oversaturation. On the other hand, prices could go up with inflation and electricity prices if the market is still insatiable, like it is in some areas, despite the large numbers being built. What happens next is anybody's guess.

My wild uneducated guess is that prices may fall about 20% or 25% gradually in the next decade if there's a saturation of windtunnels in North America eventually, especially smaller lower-powered models (8 or 10 feet diameter shopping-mall models, maybe) and multi-level models (2 or 3 levels, separated by netting) that doubles or triples whuffo traffic. Price cuts are much more easily justifiable with these models. This will entice a few more people to take up the tunnels, bringing them back to 75-80% or more capacity on a continent-wide average.

Yes, some of them will idle part of the time. But that's to protect price erosion which is sound business practice. One tunnel provides a big enough discount, there is pressure on other wind tunnels to reduce prices. These things are fiendishly expensive. The capital needs to be paid off. There can be cost overruns in many construction projects. So keeping the prices the way they are and still having 80% capacity, is still a reasonable business model.

The $25-per-hour windtunnel days are over, but there's a massive untapped market to recruit. I think there could be a profitable industry of 100 windtunnels in North America alone, within 10 years from now, the market should be big enough provided my assumption of enough flexibility to reduce prices, is correct. Not a big wholesale price reduction, just a few percent at least. (One example -- $19.99 for a 2 minute introductory flight, could easily quadruple whuffo traffic compared to the typical almost-$40 for a 2 minute introductory flight -- and still bring in $600 per hour, perhaps enough to pay for the costs of a capital-already-paid-off windtunnel. Anyway, education on the economics of selling stuff, show a cube relationship of some kind -- half price causes quadruple sales with certain kinds of items)

I say, there's plenty of room for expansion. Yes, you actually see certain McDonalds go out of business occasionally and reopen in other locations -- so there may be a rebalancing of the market in a decade from now, who knows, hopefully not -- but I think the market is going to continue to be very viable. I think North America is a big enough market to keep more than 100 windtunnels fully profitable, provided they are opened in the right locations and operated properly.

Also, UK tunnels are much more expensive (Twice as expensive, I think -- something like $1000 per hour! Ouch, ouch, ouch!) and they're often fully booked. So prices could go up, who knows.

Anyway, I don't expect prices to change much for the rest of the decade. Next decade, who knows? I just think there's enough healthy economics in a modern reliable low-maintenance windtunnel, even at only 75% utilization, to allow a lot of market expansion. It may hurt a tunnel or two, here and there, but most of the eventual 100 windtunnels in North America should be very viable for a long time -- most are not even advertising to the fullest extent because they are still maximizing capacity sufficiently enough.

Supply and demand will adjust the prices, and probably weed out some of the weaker capitallized people who nearly went bankrupt paying for the construction of some of them, but the profitable ongoing operation of a windtunnel would ensure that they stay in business for a long time to come, even during any future price erosion...

[PhreeZone 20]

When I fist started jumping the only real tunnel in town was Orlando. Prices were at $600 for an off block hour. Same block is now $675 and there are now 2 more (soon to be 3) indoor tunnels in the US. Skydiver block time pays the bills and pays the staff. Not much profit on block times.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[freefalljenn 0]

I am a skydiver who migrated to tunnels via my skydiving. I was excited to try out the tunnel and amazed at how quickly I was able to learn things since I didn't have to stop what I was doing and save my life every 60 seconds.
I think it is safe to say that most skydivers view tunnel flying as an extension of their skydiving, maybe something to do when it is to cold for them to jump. After my most recent visit to the tunnel, I caught the tunnel bug and have since done a lot of research and make some friends who solely tunnel fly, or have some jumps but don't really care to make more since they have a tunnel available to fly in.
Tunnel flying is a great way to get people who would never try skydiving to learn just how amazing and enjoyable body flight is. Tunnel Flying/Body flight really is a seperate sport and a seperate entity from skydiving, though some people enjoy both sports. I can honestly say that I have seen many more amazing and talented body pilots in the tunnel in the short time that I have been tunnel flying than what I have seen in freefall in the 7 years I have been skydiving.
You can take my opinions as you will, but I wanted to shed some light on the subject from the point of view of a skydiver who enjoys tunnel flying much more than jumping.

jenn
Tunnel Junkie Since November 2005! ;o)~
TPM #46
Paraclete XP TPM Delegate

[Dumpster 0]

mmmm - Mebbe you took me the wrong way -
Tunnel time is great - I know there's more than a few who prefer the tunnel to actual freefall - But for some one like me, it takes the buzz away. I'd love to have a tunnel in the Chicago-Milwaukee area. I have no doubt the customer base is there, seems there aren't any investors though. I, for one, would be spending a few hours a year in the tunnel in the wintertime, and jumping all summer.

My daughter Sarah had an hour in the tunnel before starting AFF. She flies like a sparrow now!

Easy Does It

[ladyskydiver 0]

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I'd love to have a tunnel in the Chicago-Milwaukee area. I have no doubt the customer base is there, seems there aren't any investors though. I, for one, would be spending a few hours a year in the tunnel in the wintertime, and jumping all summer.

I'd be begging for a job with them to support my tunnel habit.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[skykittykat 0]

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When I fist started jumping the only real tunnel in town was Orlando. Prices were at $600 for an off block hour. Same block is now $675 and there are now 2 more (soon to be 3) indoor tunnels in the US. Skydiver block time pays the bills and pays the staff. Not much profit on block times.

Inflation pays a part in pricing...

Whuffo prices pay the bills as they are billed higher than skydivers. Orlando and Arizona charge skydivers less than Whuffos.

Talk about kids in the tunnel. My friend (who is a world champ many times over and still competes at world level) - his son has maybe max 1 hour in the tunnel and he is only 12 and he is better than a lot of skydivers in the tunnel. The last time he flew, he did the most perfect outfacing move and held it without moving a centimetre until he had to move to face off again. He didn't get that good because of who his father is, but he listened to what he was he was supposed to do.

His younger sister is not as good, but she will not listen to either the tunnel rat or her father.

The kids that come through will be the same as any adult taking instruction - those that listen and learn and those that don't.

His father is getting a jumpsuit made for him in Thailand and then there will be no stopping him

Liz

[Dumpster 0]

You and Me both!!!

Easy Does It

[Paige 0]

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Skydiver block time pays the bills and pays the staff. Not much profit on block times.

Tourists pay the bills not skydivers. It seems like you said the same thing twice, maybe a typo but it is most def. not skydivers that pay the bills at SVO.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[tunnelfly 0]

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In Reply To
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Skydiver block time pays the bills and pays the staff. Not much profit on block times.

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Tourists pay the bills not skydivers. It seems like you said the same thing twice, maybe a typo but it is most def. not skydivers that pay the bills at SVO.

I guess he wanted to say that the price of bulk time just covers the costs and leaves no profit.
And, I think it's wrong to say that it's not skydivers that pay the bills (even at SVO). I can't imagine a tunnel owner selling tunnel time at a lossy rate...

Editing: ...and if they do, I guess they call it "marketing" (i.e. British World Team participants at Bodyflight Bedford)

No.1 reason NOT to be an astronaut: ...You can't drink beer at zero gravity...

[skykittykat 0]

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His younger sister is not as good, but she will not listen to either the tunnel rat or her father.

God, that totally came out wrong (hence my replying to my own post) - she is VERY aware in the tunnel in that when doing a 360 she waved to me and her baby brother during the turn, which was a perfect turn in place. As with most 6 year olds they don't like being told what to do

I guarantee, a year from now, she will be putting a lot of people to shame in the tunnel!

Go the future generation.

Liz

[Paige 0]

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His younger sister is not as good, but she will not listen to either the tunnel rat or her father.

God, that totally came out wrong (hence my replying to my own post) - she is VERY aware in the tunnel in that when doing a 360 she waved to me and her baby brother during the turn, which was a perfect turn in place. As with most 6 year olds they don't like being told what to do

I guarantee, a year from now, she will be putting a lot of people to shame in the tunnel!

Just make sure she gives you a good rate on coaching when she starts

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[skykittykat 0]

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Just make sure she gives you a good rate on coaching when she starts. Seriously cool when little kids can do this stuff better than us!

It sucks doesn't it!!!!! I suppose kids don't have the same hang ups as adults or the same fears, eg, how do we look while flying, etc.

My little buddy already tells me how to drive, so am expecting at any time for the tunnel coaching
I'm so happy when I see all the kids in the tunnel flying really well and having a blast.

Too cute.

Liz

[Casurf1978 0]

Rumor has it that Skyventure is putting one up in Universal City Walk here in LA. I'm intrested to see how that one will do. It seems it will mostly cater to the non-jumper crowd.

[diablopilot 2]

It's suposed to be a 3 motor 10 foot version. Odds are it won't be hugely popular with skydivers, but should do well with wuffos.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 643]

I have a friend who regularly did the Aerodium wind tunnel in Quebec in 1979 -- yes, 1979 -- I understand this was the first VWT in North America. ... this outdoor windtunnel.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just to clarify: Aerodium was an INDOOR tunnel. From the outside, it looked like a corn silo made of concrete blocks. Air recirculated between the double, concrete walls.
And it was warm enough - when I flew in it in December 1981 - that I did not need a toque!

[riggerrob 643]

Tourists pay the bills not skydivers. It seems like you said the same thing twice, maybe a typo but it is most def. not skydivers that pay the bills at SVO.

[Toobin 0]

I know this post is a bit old, but it made my eyeball twich in confusion ....you ARE being sarcastic, right? Oh and as far as the tunnel being a passing fad.....look at them now

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>I predict that wind tunnels will eventually fade from our sport.

I agree, there really isn't any value to 4, 5, 15 minutes of straight doing RW or anything else to help reinforce good habits.

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[slotperfect 7]

Wow! This is a blast from the past! FYI . . . the OP (UTD) was a mega-troll with about five other troll aliases here in the forums. He and his alter-egos were banned from the site back in the summer of 2006.

Arrive Safely

John

[RackJR 0]

hey Matty,

i didn't read the whole thread, but wanted to give you a couple things about wind tunnels. hopefully i'm not repeating things too badly.

skyventure colorado gives return flyers a basic rate of $15 per minute, when you buy a minimum of 5 minutes. typically skydivers are not charged full price even on their first flight, but given the return flyer rate immediately. so by cost comparison, (jumps in longmont colorado are $23), it's cheaper.

i think the more important aspects are somewhat less tangible. first, still tangible and easy to understand, a typical freefall is not 60 seconds, so the cost/minute of tunnel time goes down again. from there, you move into the ability of the student to learn. typically, new students are concerned (to say the least) about pull time, flying the canopy, and landing. those concerns all affect your ability to take in information. how much does your coach cost? slot plus coaching fee almost certainly. How does your coach fly? are they right next to you all the time, able to help? how will the video look? will you get everything on there, if the coach doesn't fly as well as you hope or can't keep up with how fast you're moving? how easy is it to understand what he/she is trying to communicate to you? if you're not getting it, you can't you stop the skydive and have it explained to you, can you? how many jumps can you make in a day? how long does your learning take, making that many/few jumps in a day? how far apart are the jumps? 30 mins/an hour? your 45 second window to learn is separated from the next 45 second window by that long. how many days will it take you to accumulate 15 minutes of freefall (at least 20 skydives)?

certainly new flyers will feel anxiety when they get in the tunnel. but that evaporates quickly as you start to get comfortable. you pack 10 minutes of learning into 10 minutes. if you're not understanding exactly what the coach is telling you, you step out of the tunnel and talk about it, and then get back in. you're learning to fly a very tight space, something most skydivers cannot do. the video will be flawless, since it's mounted outside and captures nearly everything (unless you cork out of the frame). i feel that 10 minutes in the tunnel will not translate dirctly as 10 minutes of freefall, but more like 30 minutes of freefall. you learn fast, you learn correctly, you learn safely.

certainly, don't stop skydiving. :) tunnel flying is not the end of the world. it is absolutely a great and cheap (by comparison) tool to advance your skills and get more out of every skydive. if you can't jump cuz the weather is bad (and growing up in wisconsin i know it can be) take a weekend to the tunnel. start your skydiving year off flying with people who have hundreds or thousands more jumps than you have, and feel confident flying with anyone.

coaching at our tunnel is incredibly reasonable, typically about $50 more per HOUR than you can buy the tunnel time for flying solo. (they give us a break on the time when we book it for coaching, so that we make a good coaching rate and you still aren't paying much more than just the rate if you bought it.)

give it a try man. you won't be sorry. just make sure you get to the gym for a few weeks before hand to do some shoulder stuff. you probably don't usually make 20-30 jumps a day, and they'll be a little tired. :)

safe skydives Matt.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[stingah 0]

well said mr. jruss.