Aerodium and how they compare to SkyVenture

[brettski74 0]

I'm working in Riga at the moment, and there's an Aerodium "wind tunnel" close by. I've talked to a couple of local jumpers who've tried it and didn't think that it was overly useful as a skydiving training tool, but I thought I'd give it a go, anyway and see. I'm wondering how my experiences here might compare to a similar amount of time spent somewhere like SkyVenture Arizona.

I tried 20 minutes, in 4 x 5 minute sessions, with my whuffo mates doing some shorter sessions in between, and afterwards, I'm kinda feeling like the locals were right. It's interesting to try out once, but I didn't feel that I got much of an educational experience out of it.

It seemed perhaps underpowered to me, or maybe they just didn't turn it up high enough for me. They did have it going significantly faster for me than for my whuffo mates, however, in my normal, comfortable arch position, I was stuck playing tummy-tag with the net. I had to push on the airflow a little to get up and stay up. I also felt less stable. That's probably due at least in part, to my inexperience in a tunnel, but I also felt that constantly having to work to stay up probably didn't help, either. I recall some people in the past suggest that having the fan underneath you would produce turbulence in the airflow. I'm not sure how true that is or how much that might affect things, but I certainly felt less stable in the air stream than I do in the sky. Maybe someone who's tried both types of tunnels could comment?

I couldn't wear my normal jumpsuit that I wear in the sky. Instead, they gave me this huge baggy suit. If I need twice as much fabric wrapped around me to give adequate lift, I think that goes to support my underpowered theory. The instructors wore the same suits, so I don't think it was a newbie thing. That extra fabric was rather annoying when doing barrel rolls.

Didn't try backflying. I rolled through 360 degrees when I did it, without a stopover on my back. Reading through the body flight progression before going might have been a good idea. I did try a back-loop, which was probably premature for my experience level, although nobody told me that until after I did it, at which point I'd already figured that out. I did get around ok, but only just, - dropped 4m and banged my knees on the net as I was coming out of the loop. Is that normal in the tunnel? Bad technique? Lack of power? All of the above?

Overall, it seems set up mostly to cater to whuffo tourists and the like, rather than skydivers. Apart from a few brief words before and during "half time", I didn't really receive much in the way of instruction. They did work a lot with my mates, but they kinda had to, cos they've never flown before. I'll probably try some time in a SkyVenture somewhere next year, but it would be interesting to know what to expect in comparison to Aerodium Sigulda. I probably won't go back to Aerodium. It wasn't the training tool I'd hoped for.

[diablopilot 2]

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I did try a back-loop, which was probably premature for my experience level, although nobody told me that until after I did it, at which point I'd already figured that out. I did get around ok, but only just, - dropped 4m and banged my knees on the net as I was coming out of the loop. Is that normal in the tunnel? Bad technique? Lack of power? All of the above?

I would argue that the back loop (flip) is both the hardest and most dangerous manuver to learn in the wind tunnel enviorment, but also the worst to spot safely for both flyer and instructor.

The reason? A vertical (standing) to vertical back flip can and does produce drives (motion) in all directions through out the rotation of the flip. In a walled tunnel this obviously can cause colisions with the wall, and in a non walled tunnel causes travel outside the airflow. Not good if you're in anything close to a head down orientation. The horizontal back flip (belly or back) is harder yet, as there can be major vertical componant lost in the transition when the flyer passes through a vertical (head down) orientation, not to mention the drives (tracking) towards walls or out of the air collum.

Be careful.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[brettski74 0]

I agree that loops in a wind tunnel are certainly not for the new or light-at-heart. I was lucky that I was starting to come out of the loop. A little less height or a little slower rotation and I quite probably would have been diving down head-first into the net with my arms in no position to provide any protection, either.

I won't be trying that again for quite some time. For any tunnel-kiddies like me at home, wait until you grow up before you try loops in the tunnel!

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

I just wanted to post on some of your questions, now remember, I'm not an expert, I just play one on tv.

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I'm wondering how my experiences here might compare to a similar amount of time spent somewhere like SkyVenture Arizona.

There wouldn't be a whole lot of similarities, other than the basic act of flying. The tunnels, the environments, the instruction techniques, all of it are very very different.

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I recall some people in the past suggest that having the fan underneath you would produce turbulence in the airflow. I'm not sure how true that is or how much that might affect things, but I certainly felt less stable in the air stream than I do in the sky. Maybe someone who's tried both types of tunnels could comment?

A fan & prop yeild very different results. In Aerodium Latvia there is a propeller.. and yes.. they create a great deal of turbulence in the airflow all by themselves. This doesn't mean however that they aren't capable of higher speeds. I have no idea of your size, but I do know that the tunnel there is capable of some fairly high speeds, I've seen plenty of video & pictures where no suit is required for flying.
The technique in tunnels without roofs, open jets, is to keep the airpseed down for beginners, until they learn the ability to control altitude, and make them work a bit for it (pressing down to get lift), once that skill is well mastered, it's far easier and less worrisome to give someone ample airspeed. If given too early, then this could result in tragedy, and no one wants that.

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I did get around ok, but only just, - dropped 4m and banged my knees on the net as I was coming out of the loop. Is that normal in the tunnel? Bad technique? Lack of power? All of the above?

Yes.. totally normal for a beginner! This is a complicated move for such a confined space. Without enough lift and skill this can be disasterous.. So, bad technique.. yes. Lack of power? probably so due to your experience level and or size.

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Overall, it seems set up mostly to cater to whuffo tourists and the like, rather than skydivers.

I hadn't realized that Latvia was a big skydiving mecca. I understand from the owner that there is quite often a long line waiting to fly of tourists & beginners.
Were you aware that you were flying in a tunnel that made history by appearing in the Olympic Closing Ceremonies just recently? It was pretty awesome!!

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I'll probably try some time in a SkyVenture somewhere next year, but it would be interesting to know what to expect in comparison to Aerodium Sigulda.

Your experience will be extremely different. SkyVenture instruction will be very structured and you will likely learn alot in a short amount of time. The price for flights/instruction will likely be significantly different as well.

A GREAT many of us learned to fly our bodies in "aerodium type air columns" and went on to be great skydivers. Provided that you are simply not TOO LARGE to benefit from the tunnel there, you should have no problem coming out of Aerodium with a solid education and skills to take to the sky. No.. they arent the same, but no tunnel and skydiving are the same. The skills we use are extremely similar, and how much you learn, is always a measure of how willing you are to learn, and not necessarily a reflection on the abilities of a particular tunnel.

[brettski74 0]

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Were you aware that you were flying in a tunnel that made history by appearing in the Olympic Closing Ceremonies just recently? It was pretty awesome!!

Yeah - I was actually. I jump with one of the Aerodium instructors here in Jelgava and we talked about the Olympic display a little while back.

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A GREAT many of us learned to fly our bodies in "aerodium type air columns" and went on to be great skydivers. Provided that you are simply not TOO LARGE to benefit from the tunnel there, you should have no problem coming out of Aerodium with a solid education and skills to take to the sky. No.. they arent the same, but no tunnel and skydiving are the same. The skills we use are extremely similar, and how much you learn, is always a measure of how willing you are to learn, and not necessarily a reflection on the abilities of a particular tunnel.

Fair enough. I don't think I'm too big - I'm about 5'10" and 175 pounds. Maybe I'll discuss what kind of training the staff may be able to provide and give it another go sometime. I did feel that I really didn't get a lot of feedback apart from a few comments like "try to do barrel rolls" during our haf-time break and "you are good" when I was leaving. I felt more frustrated because compared to how I fly in the sky, I thought I sucked, which is why I left there thinking there wasn't much point going back.

[GordonH 0]

[reply I did feel that I really didn't get a lot of feedback apart from a few comments like "try to do barrel rolls" during our haf-time break and "you are good" when I was leaving. I felt more frustrated because compared to how I fly in the sky, I thought I sucked, which is why I left there thinking there wasn't much point going back.

[avenfoto 0]

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However if you want to learn advanced FS techniques then you probably want a tunnel where you can fly in your normal suit, so the moves are as similar as possible to your skydiving.

i disagree. brett, if you can learn to fly the aerodium, or any other propdriven "pusher" airstream, you will be able to fly anything.

skydivers say "this or that tunnel sucks, because it wasnt fast enough" or "the air wasnt smooth enough" but the real reason they dont have fun is because they are incapable.

you have to forget the "arch hard, relax" buisness..

"stable" on prop wash wont actuallly be stable at all, you will have to constantly make small adjustments based on where the air "is" at any given time..

watch some experienced fliers in that style tunnel, you will see what i mean..arms and legs constantly in motion..

you sais it yourself in the beginning " i felt like i had to push on the air collum to stay up"

i have a good friend who can fly 75mph in a normal suit..

that, my friend, is called creating lift. it will make you learn to maximize usable surface area, and more concious of body position.. naturally this will make you a better all around bodyflier, both in the sky and in the collum.

good luck, have fun..

ps. the funnest tunnel i have flown so far was a 6foot wide collum, driven by a dc-3 prop connected to a diesel motor on the back of a semi truck.. a real hack-job. if you can fly that, you can fly anything.

fwiw ive flown sv orlando, sv newhampshire, l1, flyaway lasvegas, and that semi truck rig..

[rehmwa 2]

I diagree with your disagreeing - GordonH was dead on target.

I just don't see the world class teams lining up to train in a semi-truck simulator for the benefits.

Slow speed tunnels are great for tunnel flying, not skydiving "training". The problem is people with 100 hrs of slow tunnel flying do fly well in the sky - that's a lot of air time to get better - but they attribute to tunnels being good rather than just all the extra practice. But apples to apples, the skydiver with 100 hours in skyventure or bodyflight will perform better in the sky than the same guy with 100 hours over the bed of a semi-truck pusher setup.

Edit: Tunnel flyers get a bit bent when someone makes a statement like the top poster. But they aren't saying it's a bad experience on "not fun". Usually, it's just a statement concerning training not a bash on tunnel flying (which is very cool and, in many cases, a very different activity).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[avenfoto 0]

agreed, however, there ARE benefits and transferable skills... especially for low-time skydivers..

the pros are already concious of thier bodyposition.. thats why they are pros..
1980's technology tunnel isnt going to be anywhere near the same as a 2006 super-tech skyventre..that should be obvious.. but to say its worthless.. is wrong..

and fwiw, i have seen "world class" fliers who can freefly svnh at 150+ totally unable to get off the net at 85...

[rehmwa 2]

I'd never say ANY vertical wind tunnel is worthless. I'd like to have the opportunity to fly them all.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[brettski74 0]

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Tunnel flyers get a bit bent when someone makes a statement like the top poster.

Whoah! I assume by "top poster" you mean me? I hope you're really not getting bent out of shape. I was asking for guidance, not bashing tunnel flying or any tunnel in particular.

I went to a tunnel - Aerodium Sigulda. I didn't expect it to be a SkyVenture Arizona or anything close. I expected it to be set up mostly for tourists. Nonetheless, I still expected it to be a tool I can use to learn to fly my body better in the sky as well and for a variety of reasons, I left disappointed because my experience fell short of those last expectations. I will definitely do a SkyVenture one day soon and I do expect it to be very different. Due to some of the response I've gotten here, I may even go back to Aerodium Sigulda, but this time I think I may have a better set of expectations and might be better prepared to make better use of the time.

[GordonH 0]

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I think you answered your own question - the quality of the instruction is probably more important that the characteristics of any particular tunnel. However if you want to learn advanced FS techniques then you probably want a tunnel where you can fly in your normal suit, so the moves are as similar as possible to your skydiving.

Just to add, the first tunnel I flew in was at Airodium Zurich. I needed a baggy suit to fly, had about 100 jumps at the time, and I learnt loads from a great instructor.

Nowadays I'd fly in any tunnel for the fun, and with a good instructor would learn loads. If I want to learn advanced FS (4-way randoms and blocks etc) then I'd personally look for a tunnel where I can fly in my normal suit. But IMHO the coaching skills of the instructor are more important than the size/type of tunnel.

Blue skies!
Gordon
Beware of advice from those with more posts than jumps ;-)

[rehmwa 2]

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Tunnel flyers get a bit bent when someone makes a statement like the top poster.

Whoah! I assume by "top poster" you mean me?

Yep - you are the top poster and;

Nope - not the rest of the quote. Not even close, you obviously aren't a tunnel hobbiest, rather a skydiver asking about tunnel training focused on improving your skydiving - so the last bit wasn't at you (sorry if I wasn't clear on it). Let me restate - People get bent when - comments are made "like the harmless comments of the top poster".

In other words, I thought you made good comments and would normally see a defensive stance in response by some.

In this case, the regular "tunnel flyers" had some good advice and discussion and didn't unreasonably defend their tunnels against a perceived slight as sometimes happens.

I was mainly talking about the whole "tunnels are no good and worthless" tangent that was starting. This thread was pretty useful up to that point. Dawn and Bryan and the rest have good advice, but if you want to use a tunnel to improve your 'typical' skydiving, get a good coach and spend some time in a Skyventure or equivalent - it'll help. The others teach you some neat stuff, but it's less directly applicable. If you just want to have a good time and learn a ton about a huge range of body flying, then go try every type of tunnel you can. Those that do that have a really fun skillset.

Edit: As you did, it's always useful to note in this forum if you are a 'tunnel flyer' vs 'skydiver', primarily, and what you are looking for when asking questions.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

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I felt more frustrated because compared to how I fly in the sky, I thought I sucked, which is why I left there thinking there wasn't much point going back.

Again, completely reasonable.. ALOT of skydivers get in the tunnel for the first time and leave feeling frustrated... even at state of the art air quality tunnels! You'll do better and better each time you go.

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Maybe I'll discuss what kind of training the staff may be able to provide and give it another go sometime.

This is a great plan if your going to be in the area for a while. Talk to them and see what if any instruction they can offer you. While they maybe didn't offer alot of instruction on your first visit, it could be because they didn't feel you wanted the instruction, or because they don't have the skills to share with you. Either way.. a good discussion with them should assist you with figuring that out, and making the decision to give it another try or not.

[brettski74 0]

So I went back and in the spirit of sharing, I thought I should let you guys know how it went, since you were so gracious as to encourage me to give it another go in the first place.

Aerodium Take 2 was *MUCH* better. I didn't realize that there were a couple of relatively experienced skydiver jumping down at Jelgava who were also instructors at Aerodium. I spoke to one of them and went back with him and another skydiver/tunnel instructor.

A few things were different that made it better.

First, they've upgraded the machinery so there's more power, now. I definitely noticed it. No more pushing on the air to get up.

The air felt smoother this time. I'm not sure that this is anything to do with the machinery. It's probably just more because of me. I was new when I started last time, and I was tired when I finished.

Third, having someone actually make suggestions of what to try next and what to focus on helped a lot. I actually felt like I learned something this time. I mostly concentrated on horizontal movement - forward and back, side-to-side, trying to feel out the size of the working area. Tried to do some leg turns, that kind of thing - nothing too radical. I still felt a little sloppy in the air, but it looked quite smooth on the video, so maybe a little more time and confidence is all I need for those maneavres, now.

Anyway, I guess the point is as everyone suggested. Don't let the frustration get to you after your first visit. Give it another try and you might be surprised.