Iflyme 0 #76 May 14, 2001 QuoteOh how perfect. I'm just the opposite. You are truly the Yang to my Yin.Nooo - I wanna be Yin! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #77 May 14, 2001 QuoteActually, Zennie, I think we have more in common than some might think - both strong willed, opinionated, and (fairly) bright!!!I like to think so. I just like to play up the potato/potahto thing every now and then. QuoteWhen are we gonna get a chance to share that beer?Funny you should mention this. It just so happens that Spaceland is going to be hosting the Texas state record attempt (going for 120) June 8-10. I'm not gonna try that, but they're having a CASA boogie simultaneously. Come on down, enjoy some of Scotty Carbone's brisket and jump out of a CASA or three. ------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #78 May 15, 2001 No but I would call you stupid for jumping out of an airplane!! (J/K)I just think we should know all of our equipment inside and out. We shouldnt have a cypres problem from pulling low because we shouldnt pull low. I personaly think it gives you more of a chance in when your in a world of shit. Sorry if i pissed you off emma, you pull your handles you must not be stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkF 0 #79 May 15, 2001 I don't _think_ that anyone's mentioned any of the problems a CYPRES may cause, except for the two out scenario. If I had a choice, and I don't as a low timer in Australia, there is no way that I'd jump a rig with an active CYPRES.....(I bet that stirs 'em up...:-)A CYPRES is a man-made electro-mechanical device. It relies on accurately measuring something that is rapidly changing at different rates of change (freefly vs RW + transitions..). It's battery powered. All of which, in my view, adds up to an unreliable device. Yes I do realise that the VAST majority of jumps with CYPRES are event free. A _few_ (by comparison) have their sorry arses saved by the correct operation of the CYPRES. Even fewer have problems caused by their own idiocy (going low and ending up with 2 out). There have been VERY few unprovoked CYPRES fires and they are the ones that fair scare me. One on a picnic table, one in a doorless aircraft on the way UP and one as the door was opened in another european incident. I've had the one in my rig fire in an aircraft on the way down. NOT a CYPRES fault, ratehr an education fault. I'd only got 3 jumps at the time and had to ride down because of wind. I asked the JM to turn the thing off, and he told me that I shouldn't worry and that we'll just have a nice ride down. Fortunately that aircraft had a door......OorooMark F... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Emma 0 #80 May 15, 2001 CYPRES SAVE REPORTJust to keep this age-old debate ticking along nicely...Last weekend a jumper at my dropzone had a mal. She's got about 200 jumps, is a fairly conservative jumper and generally considered safe, reasonable and (?) not stoopid. In fact, she used to be in the army so she aint a silly dizzy fluffy bimbo type either.Anyway, she carried out her drills, cutaway, and pulled her reserve handle...Nothing happened...so she starts to shit herself a bit, seeing as she's 2,000 feet away from impact with a very big planet and rapidly approaching terminal...She's tugging away at her reserve and can't get it loose, when at 750 feet or thereabouts, her Cypres fired.Now, if she hadn't had a Cypres, she would have died - defnitely. Because, when she went to deploy her reserve, her rig had moved from its normal position (they do that sometimes) and in fact, she'd grabbed her 3-ring circus and was trying to pull on THAT, thinking it was her reserve handle.Yes, that sounds dumb, and I like to think I wouldn't do that...But, I can't help thinking I'm glad she had a Cypres, because in the 4 seconds or so she had till impact, she couldn't mentally deal with thinking slowly and rationally, and looking for that reserve handle again.The trouble is, we all like to assume we'd do the right thing at the right time and not make a stupid mistake....I don't criticise anyone who jumps without a Cypres, but things like this really make you think.Anyway, suppose the moral of the story is 'LOOK, locate, cutaway, reserve...'emma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rja17 0 #81 May 25, 2001 I hate to bring something as silly as logic and math into this emotional dialogue, but I find it difficult not to do so in the face of such an inane debate. Here are the facts: 1) Cypress false positive (firing when they should not) or false negative (not firing when they should) are essentially non-existent. And yes, there is a chance that a Cypress will fire if you're pulling your main at 1,000 feet - but if you're pulling your main at 1000 feet perhaps your risk profile is not appropriate or beneficial for the sport (try cliff-diving). 2) On a cost-per-jump basis, a Cypress is extrodinarily cheap. Do the math, I promise it won't hurt. 3) Your life is of infinite value to you.I hate to be dogmatic, but if you jump without a Cypress you are a) bad at math; b) suffer from cognitive dissonance; or c) just plain dumb. Ask yourself these easy quesitons:Would you keep jumping if the cost per jump increased by $1? Of course you would. Well that, my friends is a conservative cost per jump of a Cypress.What is the value of your life? To me my life is worth an infinite amount. Therefore even the most minute chance that a Cypress would save my life is worth the cost. If you agree to that premise, then the only way in which you could reasonably argue against having a Cypress would be if the odds of a misfire causing death are higher than the odds of death when a cypress could have saved you. Even if you don't run the numbers (I have) this is obviously not the case! A Cypress is much, MUCH more likely to save you than kill you - the difference is so great the comparison is not even reasonable.But please, don't take my word on this. Look at the May/June issue of Contingencies, a publication of the American Academy of Actuaries. They published a statistical analysis of AADs and have illuminated some interesting facts.And my closing thought for the anti-AAD crowd - It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong if you're dead. No one will think less of you if you change your mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cdunham 0 #82 May 26, 2001 You are absolutely right!Will you lend me the $1500? I'll pay you back $1 every time I make a jump over the remainder of my skydiving career!Carl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Iflyme 0 #83 May 26, 2001 QuoteI hate to be dogmatic, but if you jump without a Cypress you are a) bad at math; b) suffer from cognitive dissonance; or c) just plain dumbMaybe you need to add a "d)" for me -- all of the above... My friend, to follow some of your logic:Quote even the most minute chance that a Cypress would save my life is worth the cost. If there is a "minute" chance you will get shot in the workplace (many more people get shot in the workplace in the USA than do skydivers die as a result of no cypres), will you run out and buy a bullet proof vest to wear to work?????Your logic is yours - you may keep it. The ratio of skydivers saved by cypress vs the number of skydives made yearly is huge... and does support your claim that those without cypres are "plain dumb". But one who will not tolerate difference of opinion just might be! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #84 May 26, 2001 QuoteBut please, don't take my word on this. Look at the May/June issue of Contingencies, a publication of the American Academy of Actuaries. They published a statistical analysis of AADs and have illuminated some interesting facts.Aside from the actual Cypres debate, is there a website for this? I've been scouring the e-planet looking for actuarial information about skydiving risks compared to other activities. Sounds like they may have what I'm looking for.------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Craig 0 #85 May 26, 2001 QuoteAside from the actual Cypres debate, is there a website for this? I've been scouring the e-planet looking for actuarial information about skydiving risks compared to other activities. Sounds like they may have what I'm looking for.I was able to hunt down the article by the American Academy of Actuaries, it can be found at the link below.http://www.contingencies.org/mayjun99.htmlCraig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #86 May 29, 2001 ----I hate to be dogmatic, but if you jump without a Cypress you are a) bad at math; b) suffer from cognitive dissonance; or c) just plain dumb. --Wow. Could it be just be that the person has different circumstances than you? I'm not against Cypres's by any means. I think they're more likely to help _most_ people than hurt them. But I don't own one. I used to. I used to own one when I had just one rig and did pretty much just RW. When I got into CRW bigtime, I sold my Cypres as I didn't really have a use for it anymore. What I did discover was that I found myself much more hesitant to get on "Zoo loads" and other things than when I did have one. I wasn't even conscious of the Cypres factoring into my decisions on what kind of jumps to make - until I didn't have one. That's when I knew I wasn't being so smart when I had one.But nowadays I have 2400 jumps, 10 reserve rides (yep, lots of CRW), and 3 rigs. One rig is completely dedicated to CRW - where a. there is no need for one (am I gonna knock myself so unconscious on a solo exit that I don't pull? I very well may die on a CRW jump, but if you study the operating parameters of the Cypres, you'll understand why one won't help me.) Also, a Cypres misfire on this rig (and yes, they have misfired - one on a tandem at 100 feet, another sitting on a picnic table among others) will almost certainly kill me from the ensuing wrap. So I won't use one in that rig.My second rig is a small Power Racer. I freefall with it, but I also do CRW with it. Its a very tight pack job without a Cypres, and there is no way to get a Cypres in there without having the pop-top stick out noticably. That is dangerous in case of I catch it on the door, and also likely to be deadly if I do CRW with it. So I'd have to sell this rig and get something larger which will hold a Cypres. My third rig is my oldest, which I probably put <20 jumps on a year, a high number of those CRW. The Cypres cost/benefit ratio seems outrageous on this rig.So am I bad at math (I do have a masters in math btw), suffering from cognitive dissonance, or just plain dumb? You tell me. I believe I'm making the best choice for my personal safety standpoint. Most people don't do a lot of CRW - that affects their decision. The type of gear you jump can affect your choices. For most people, the rational decision might be to get a Cypres. But its not for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lazerq3 0 #87 May 29, 2001 I just wanted to jump in and say that for me I have only 13 jumps to my name and just last sunday I jumped for the first time without an AAD. Did it change my thought process...no, did it change my emergency proceedures......no, the only thing it changed was the fact that I didnt have to check to see if it was turned on during my gear check. I had all the confidence I had when I was jumping one. Call me crazy, call my stupid, but for all those who preach that those who jump w/out aad's are stupid or careless, when driving a car you better have your seatbelt on at ALL times, when riding a bike have a helmut, and when having sex, wearing a condom or else your just a hypocrit (is that the proper spelling) just my .02peace to all and to each there own!jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CJMeredith 0 #88 May 29, 2001 I hesitated to get into this debate and have been surprised that it's gone on as long as it has. However, the answer seems pretty clear to me - Everyone is right! We all make the decision that best fits our own personal situation.Personally, I'm convinced that in most circumstances, a Cypres saves lives and I always jump with one. But, I've got a wife, two kids, a dog, and a mortgage (and enough life insurance to take care of them all). My life belongs to others as much as it belongs to me. I skydive for myself - I use a Cypres for them. If my circumstances were different, would I still use a Cypres? Maybe not.The other thing that occurs to me is that we all jump for different reasons. For me, the danger is an unavoidable element to experience the adrenaline rush. For others, the danger is the primary component (whether they realize it or not). They're the ones who are constantly pushing the limits and I say more power to them.I'm also in the military and I've spent a professional career dealing with high risk training. When I was younger, the riskier the better. Now that I'm older, I don't feel the same burn to go out and see how far I can go. I'm a believer in risk management and when you're responsible for others, I think you have to be. But, if you're just responsible for yourself, and you're not putting anyone else in danger, then do whatever you want (as long as it's legal).I also always wear my seatbelt and would never ride a motorcycle without a helmet, but I am vehemently opposed to seatbelt and helmet laws because they infringe on our personal freedom to decide how much protection we want. Everyone should have the right to get thrown through the windshield, smash their melons on the pavement or smack the ground when unforeseen circumstances occur. As long as you don't hurt anybody else, it's everyone's right to decide their own level of safety. Certainly there are the larger implications to the sport when people start bouncing, but thousands of people die in car accidents every year and people are still driving - the sport can survive a few additional accidents every year.I am amazed at the name calling and sweeping judgements being made by the radicals on both sides of this issue. Whether you believe that Cypreses should be worn or not, we all have the right to make our own informed decisions without being declared an "idiot." The radicals need to tone it down a notch or two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Freeflylizard 0 #89 May 30, 2001 Nice one CJMeredith! You've totally got what my original point was (I was the one who started this very long post). I think that it is everybody's own individual decision. I feel much the same as you - I skydive for myself, and I jump a CYPRES for my family and friends. I was just interested to hear what everybody else thought about the whole thing, and am really pretty disgusted at the amount of name-calling and bitching about others that there seems to be in our great sport. CHILL people! Make your decision, discuss your opinions, but quit judging other people. Chill out and enjoy your skydives without trying to be so high and mighty. God bless!Tom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Iflyme 0 #90 June 5, 2001 Quotebut I am vehemently opposed to seatbelt and helmet laws because they infringe on our personal freedom to decide how much protection we want. You are clearly smart enough to wear a helmet and/or seatbelt at the appropriate times. These laws are for the protection of those - and the people who love them - who aren't smart enough to protect themselves. Like the 15 year old girl who died here a few years back when she simply tipped over on her bike - whe was barely even moving - and hit her unprotected head on a curb... and died. If our helmet law had been in place back then, perhaps she would be alive today. If ONE death is prevented at the expense of the rest of us having to wear a helmet/seatbelt, then the law is worthy.IMHO, Frank Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites what42 0 #91 June 5, 2001 QuoteIf ONE death is prevented at the expense of the rest of us having to wear a helmet/seatbelt, then the law is worthy.I disagree with your logic here. Whuffos could use your arguement to say that skydiving should be illegal. It would save about 30 lives a year if we banned it. And, if ONE death is prevented at the expense of the rest of us having to quit skydiving, then the law is worthy. Do you agree?I think personal freedom of choice with our own lives is more important. People choose thier own acceptable risks.Wesley--I want to fly! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DZBone 0 #92 June 5, 2001 QuoteI think personal freedom of choice with our own lives is more important.W, I was going to make the same argument, but in rereading Frank's post, I assumed he meant this should be the case for those unable to make the decision themselves, ie children, incompetants, and those with insufficient information to make an informed choice (students). Am I misinterpreting, Frank?To apply the logic to the population at large is paternalistic, and leads down a VERY slippery slope. The general way that society tends to do this is to make the slope so slight that we don't notice it. Think about the personal freedoms we had 20 years ago compared to today. Why have we given it all up without too much complaining? My guess is because we haven't really noticed it as it happened. Sorry to sound like one of those libertarian nut-jobs (or just a normal libertarian), but I just hate to see this.However, let's help the kids, and please make intelligent decisions for me when it isn't practical for me to have all the information I need to make my own choice. Once I do, BACK OFF!Carl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeekStreak 0 #93 June 5, 2001 OK. Settled then. CHILDREN MUST WEAR AADs.1111,GeekStreak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DZBone 0 #94 June 5, 2001 QuoteCHILDREN MUST WEAR AADsWait, inner children or outer children? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeekStreak 0 #95 June 5, 2001 OUTER, of course! Otherwise there would be no debate. We'd all be wearing them!1111,GeekStreak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites what42 0 #96 June 5, 2001 Wow...this thread is old. Every few weeks someone resurects it.Wesley--I want to fly! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites adamh 0 #97 June 6, 2001 Mate!As a UK jumper as well I understand - I bought an AAD (an ASTRA) after reading the CYPRES saves statistics - whether you FF or RW they've got to be a good idea, just ask anyone who've they have saved.I used to jump without an AAD until reading that statistics page - hopefully I'll never need it but, like any insurance, you can't rely on it but it's a little gadget that could save the day, and your neck - literally.£660.00 well spent!Adam H Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites what42 0 #98 June 6, 2001 How do you like the Astra? I haven't seen anyone at my dz using one but the price and lower maintnence costs attract me.Wesley--I want to fly! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeekStreak 0 #99 June 18, 2001 If it's good enough for HIM, it's good enough for me 1111,GeekStreak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Zennie 0 #77 May 14, 2001 QuoteActually, Zennie, I think we have more in common than some might think - both strong willed, opinionated, and (fairly) bright!!!I like to think so. I just like to play up the potato/potahto thing every now and then. QuoteWhen are we gonna get a chance to share that beer?Funny you should mention this. It just so happens that Spaceland is going to be hosting the Texas state record attempt (going for 120) June 8-10. I'm not gonna try that, but they're having a CASA boogie simultaneously. Come on down, enjoy some of Scotty Carbone's brisket and jump out of a CASA or three. ------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #78 May 15, 2001 No but I would call you stupid for jumping out of an airplane!! (J/K)I just think we should know all of our equipment inside and out. We shouldnt have a cypres problem from pulling low because we shouldnt pull low. I personaly think it gives you more of a chance in when your in a world of shit. Sorry if i pissed you off emma, you pull your handles you must not be stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkF 0 #79 May 15, 2001 I don't _think_ that anyone's mentioned any of the problems a CYPRES may cause, except for the two out scenario. If I had a choice, and I don't as a low timer in Australia, there is no way that I'd jump a rig with an active CYPRES.....(I bet that stirs 'em up...:-)A CYPRES is a man-made electro-mechanical device. It relies on accurately measuring something that is rapidly changing at different rates of change (freefly vs RW + transitions..). It's battery powered. All of which, in my view, adds up to an unreliable device. Yes I do realise that the VAST majority of jumps with CYPRES are event free. A _few_ (by comparison) have their sorry arses saved by the correct operation of the CYPRES. Even fewer have problems caused by their own idiocy (going low and ending up with 2 out). There have been VERY few unprovoked CYPRES fires and they are the ones that fair scare me. One on a picnic table, one in a doorless aircraft on the way UP and one as the door was opened in another european incident. I've had the one in my rig fire in an aircraft on the way down. NOT a CYPRES fault, ratehr an education fault. I'd only got 3 jumps at the time and had to ride down because of wind. I asked the JM to turn the thing off, and he told me that I shouldn't worry and that we'll just have a nice ride down. Fortunately that aircraft had a door......OorooMark F... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emma 0 #80 May 15, 2001 CYPRES SAVE REPORTJust to keep this age-old debate ticking along nicely...Last weekend a jumper at my dropzone had a mal. She's got about 200 jumps, is a fairly conservative jumper and generally considered safe, reasonable and (?) not stoopid. In fact, she used to be in the army so she aint a silly dizzy fluffy bimbo type either.Anyway, she carried out her drills, cutaway, and pulled her reserve handle...Nothing happened...so she starts to shit herself a bit, seeing as she's 2,000 feet away from impact with a very big planet and rapidly approaching terminal...She's tugging away at her reserve and can't get it loose, when at 750 feet or thereabouts, her Cypres fired.Now, if she hadn't had a Cypres, she would have died - defnitely. Because, when she went to deploy her reserve, her rig had moved from its normal position (they do that sometimes) and in fact, she'd grabbed her 3-ring circus and was trying to pull on THAT, thinking it was her reserve handle.Yes, that sounds dumb, and I like to think I wouldn't do that...But, I can't help thinking I'm glad she had a Cypres, because in the 4 seconds or so she had till impact, she couldn't mentally deal with thinking slowly and rationally, and looking for that reserve handle again.The trouble is, we all like to assume we'd do the right thing at the right time and not make a stupid mistake....I don't criticise anyone who jumps without a Cypres, but things like this really make you think.Anyway, suppose the moral of the story is 'LOOK, locate, cutaway, reserve...'emma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rja17 0 #81 May 25, 2001 I hate to bring something as silly as logic and math into this emotional dialogue, but I find it difficult not to do so in the face of such an inane debate. Here are the facts: 1) Cypress false positive (firing when they should not) or false negative (not firing when they should) are essentially non-existent. And yes, there is a chance that a Cypress will fire if you're pulling your main at 1,000 feet - but if you're pulling your main at 1000 feet perhaps your risk profile is not appropriate or beneficial for the sport (try cliff-diving). 2) On a cost-per-jump basis, a Cypress is extrodinarily cheap. Do the math, I promise it won't hurt. 3) Your life is of infinite value to you.I hate to be dogmatic, but if you jump without a Cypress you are a) bad at math; b) suffer from cognitive dissonance; or c) just plain dumb. Ask yourself these easy quesitons:Would you keep jumping if the cost per jump increased by $1? Of course you would. Well that, my friends is a conservative cost per jump of a Cypress.What is the value of your life? To me my life is worth an infinite amount. Therefore even the most minute chance that a Cypress would save my life is worth the cost. If you agree to that premise, then the only way in which you could reasonably argue against having a Cypress would be if the odds of a misfire causing death are higher than the odds of death when a cypress could have saved you. Even if you don't run the numbers (I have) this is obviously not the case! A Cypress is much, MUCH more likely to save you than kill you - the difference is so great the comparison is not even reasonable.But please, don't take my word on this. Look at the May/June issue of Contingencies, a publication of the American Academy of Actuaries. They published a statistical analysis of AADs and have illuminated some interesting facts.And my closing thought for the anti-AAD crowd - It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong if you're dead. No one will think less of you if you change your mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cdunham 0 #82 May 26, 2001 You are absolutely right!Will you lend me the $1500? I'll pay you back $1 every time I make a jump over the remainder of my skydiving career!Carl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #83 May 26, 2001 QuoteI hate to be dogmatic, but if you jump without a Cypress you are a) bad at math; b) suffer from cognitive dissonance; or c) just plain dumbMaybe you need to add a "d)" for me -- all of the above... My friend, to follow some of your logic:Quote even the most minute chance that a Cypress would save my life is worth the cost. If there is a "minute" chance you will get shot in the workplace (many more people get shot in the workplace in the USA than do skydivers die as a result of no cypres), will you run out and buy a bullet proof vest to wear to work?????Your logic is yours - you may keep it. The ratio of skydivers saved by cypress vs the number of skydives made yearly is huge... and does support your claim that those without cypres are "plain dumb". But one who will not tolerate difference of opinion just might be! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #84 May 26, 2001 QuoteBut please, don't take my word on this. Look at the May/June issue of Contingencies, a publication of the American Academy of Actuaries. They published a statistical analysis of AADs and have illuminated some interesting facts.Aside from the actual Cypres debate, is there a website for this? I've been scouring the e-planet looking for actuarial information about skydiving risks compared to other activities. Sounds like they may have what I'm looking for.------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Craig 0 #85 May 26, 2001 QuoteAside from the actual Cypres debate, is there a website for this? I've been scouring the e-planet looking for actuarial information about skydiving risks compared to other activities. Sounds like they may have what I'm looking for.I was able to hunt down the article by the American Academy of Actuaries, it can be found at the link below.http://www.contingencies.org/mayjun99.htmlCraig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #86 May 29, 2001 ----I hate to be dogmatic, but if you jump without a Cypress you are a) bad at math; b) suffer from cognitive dissonance; or c) just plain dumb. --Wow. Could it be just be that the person has different circumstances than you? I'm not against Cypres's by any means. I think they're more likely to help _most_ people than hurt them. But I don't own one. I used to. I used to own one when I had just one rig and did pretty much just RW. When I got into CRW bigtime, I sold my Cypres as I didn't really have a use for it anymore. What I did discover was that I found myself much more hesitant to get on "Zoo loads" and other things than when I did have one. I wasn't even conscious of the Cypres factoring into my decisions on what kind of jumps to make - until I didn't have one. That's when I knew I wasn't being so smart when I had one.But nowadays I have 2400 jumps, 10 reserve rides (yep, lots of CRW), and 3 rigs. One rig is completely dedicated to CRW - where a. there is no need for one (am I gonna knock myself so unconscious on a solo exit that I don't pull? I very well may die on a CRW jump, but if you study the operating parameters of the Cypres, you'll understand why one won't help me.) Also, a Cypres misfire on this rig (and yes, they have misfired - one on a tandem at 100 feet, another sitting on a picnic table among others) will almost certainly kill me from the ensuing wrap. So I won't use one in that rig.My second rig is a small Power Racer. I freefall with it, but I also do CRW with it. Its a very tight pack job without a Cypres, and there is no way to get a Cypres in there without having the pop-top stick out noticably. That is dangerous in case of I catch it on the door, and also likely to be deadly if I do CRW with it. So I'd have to sell this rig and get something larger which will hold a Cypres. My third rig is my oldest, which I probably put <20 jumps on a year, a high number of those CRW. The Cypres cost/benefit ratio seems outrageous on this rig.So am I bad at math (I do have a masters in math btw), suffering from cognitive dissonance, or just plain dumb? You tell me. I believe I'm making the best choice for my personal safety standpoint. Most people don't do a lot of CRW - that affects their decision. The type of gear you jump can affect your choices. For most people, the rational decision might be to get a Cypres. But its not for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #87 May 29, 2001 I just wanted to jump in and say that for me I have only 13 jumps to my name and just last sunday I jumped for the first time without an AAD. Did it change my thought process...no, did it change my emergency proceedures......no, the only thing it changed was the fact that I didnt have to check to see if it was turned on during my gear check. I had all the confidence I had when I was jumping one. Call me crazy, call my stupid, but for all those who preach that those who jump w/out aad's are stupid or careless, when driving a car you better have your seatbelt on at ALL times, when riding a bike have a helmut, and when having sex, wearing a condom or else your just a hypocrit (is that the proper spelling) just my .02peace to all and to each there own!jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CJMeredith 0 #88 May 29, 2001 I hesitated to get into this debate and have been surprised that it's gone on as long as it has. However, the answer seems pretty clear to me - Everyone is right! We all make the decision that best fits our own personal situation.Personally, I'm convinced that in most circumstances, a Cypres saves lives and I always jump with one. But, I've got a wife, two kids, a dog, and a mortgage (and enough life insurance to take care of them all). My life belongs to others as much as it belongs to me. I skydive for myself - I use a Cypres for them. If my circumstances were different, would I still use a Cypres? Maybe not.The other thing that occurs to me is that we all jump for different reasons. For me, the danger is an unavoidable element to experience the adrenaline rush. For others, the danger is the primary component (whether they realize it or not). They're the ones who are constantly pushing the limits and I say more power to them.I'm also in the military and I've spent a professional career dealing with high risk training. When I was younger, the riskier the better. Now that I'm older, I don't feel the same burn to go out and see how far I can go. I'm a believer in risk management and when you're responsible for others, I think you have to be. But, if you're just responsible for yourself, and you're not putting anyone else in danger, then do whatever you want (as long as it's legal).I also always wear my seatbelt and would never ride a motorcycle without a helmet, but I am vehemently opposed to seatbelt and helmet laws because they infringe on our personal freedom to decide how much protection we want. Everyone should have the right to get thrown through the windshield, smash their melons on the pavement or smack the ground when unforeseen circumstances occur. As long as you don't hurt anybody else, it's everyone's right to decide their own level of safety. Certainly there are the larger implications to the sport when people start bouncing, but thousands of people die in car accidents every year and people are still driving - the sport can survive a few additional accidents every year.I am amazed at the name calling and sweeping judgements being made by the radicals on both sides of this issue. Whether you believe that Cypreses should be worn or not, we all have the right to make our own informed decisions without being declared an "idiot." The radicals need to tone it down a notch or two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflylizard 0 #89 May 30, 2001 Nice one CJMeredith! You've totally got what my original point was (I was the one who started this very long post). I think that it is everybody's own individual decision. I feel much the same as you - I skydive for myself, and I jump a CYPRES for my family and friends. I was just interested to hear what everybody else thought about the whole thing, and am really pretty disgusted at the amount of name-calling and bitching about others that there seems to be in our great sport. CHILL people! Make your decision, discuss your opinions, but quit judging other people. Chill out and enjoy your skydives without trying to be so high and mighty. God bless!Tom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #90 June 5, 2001 Quotebut I am vehemently opposed to seatbelt and helmet laws because they infringe on our personal freedom to decide how much protection we want. You are clearly smart enough to wear a helmet and/or seatbelt at the appropriate times. These laws are for the protection of those - and the people who love them - who aren't smart enough to protect themselves. Like the 15 year old girl who died here a few years back when she simply tipped over on her bike - whe was barely even moving - and hit her unprotected head on a curb... and died. If our helmet law had been in place back then, perhaps she would be alive today. If ONE death is prevented at the expense of the rest of us having to wear a helmet/seatbelt, then the law is worthy.IMHO, Frank Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
what42 0 #91 June 5, 2001 QuoteIf ONE death is prevented at the expense of the rest of us having to wear a helmet/seatbelt, then the law is worthy.I disagree with your logic here. Whuffos could use your arguement to say that skydiving should be illegal. It would save about 30 lives a year if we banned it. And, if ONE death is prevented at the expense of the rest of us having to quit skydiving, then the law is worthy. Do you agree?I think personal freedom of choice with our own lives is more important. People choose thier own acceptable risks.Wesley--I want to fly! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #92 June 5, 2001 QuoteI think personal freedom of choice with our own lives is more important.W, I was going to make the same argument, but in rereading Frank's post, I assumed he meant this should be the case for those unable to make the decision themselves, ie children, incompetants, and those with insufficient information to make an informed choice (students). Am I misinterpreting, Frank?To apply the logic to the population at large is paternalistic, and leads down a VERY slippery slope. The general way that society tends to do this is to make the slope so slight that we don't notice it. Think about the personal freedoms we had 20 years ago compared to today. Why have we given it all up without too much complaining? My guess is because we haven't really noticed it as it happened. Sorry to sound like one of those libertarian nut-jobs (or just a normal libertarian), but I just hate to see this.However, let's help the kids, and please make intelligent decisions for me when it isn't practical for me to have all the information I need to make my own choice. Once I do, BACK OFF!Carl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeekStreak 0 #93 June 5, 2001 OK. Settled then. CHILDREN MUST WEAR AADs.1111,GeekStreak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #94 June 5, 2001 QuoteCHILDREN MUST WEAR AADsWait, inner children or outer children? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeekStreak 0 #95 June 5, 2001 OUTER, of course! Otherwise there would be no debate. We'd all be wearing them!1111,GeekStreak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
what42 0 #96 June 5, 2001 Wow...this thread is old. Every few weeks someone resurects it.Wesley--I want to fly! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamh 0 #97 June 6, 2001 Mate!As a UK jumper as well I understand - I bought an AAD (an ASTRA) after reading the CYPRES saves statistics - whether you FF or RW they've got to be a good idea, just ask anyone who've they have saved.I used to jump without an AAD until reading that statistics page - hopefully I'll never need it but, like any insurance, you can't rely on it but it's a little gadget that could save the day, and your neck - literally.£660.00 well spent!Adam H Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
what42 0 #98 June 6, 2001 How do you like the Astra? I haven't seen anyone at my dz using one but the price and lower maintnence costs attract me.Wesley--I want to fly! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeekStreak 0 #99 June 18, 2001 If it's good enough for HIM, it's good enough for me 1111,GeekStreak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
