TI's have ever been taken for a ride?

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

After seeing the poll on intentional flips I was wondering about this. How many of you Tandem I's have been taken for a ride(unintentionally unstable for more than 5-6 seconds.) Give me some info # of Tandems, how many times, type of exits, where they side spins, passengers position ect..
I have not been taken for a ride and have done about 500 tandems. Have seen 7-8 while shooting video for about the same number of jumps

[AggieDave 6]

I've had one true "ride" in my 300-some tandems. Stable exit/dive from a 182, well it was supposed to be anyways. The passenger exit position, literally a split second after exit, went from what we had trained to a perfect position to create a sidespin (that was my video guy's description, the video guy who was also my course director). I tried to fight it, I tried to move my student's body (legs/arms) but couldn't budge the little f***er. He was literally scared stiff. I'm not exactly a weak person, so it truely surprised me I couldn't budge his arms or legs.

We hit it up with a sidespin, somehow I got the drogue from down to up and tossed it to the wind. It was roughly about 10 seconds from 11k until I got the drogue out at 5k. If drogue side hadn't come up, it would have been a reserve pull.

After extensive review of the video and stills with my course director, he basically said I did everything I could have done and did the right thing (which helped me out, since I thought I had totally screwed up).

Ok, all the details you wanted.

Not an intentional flip exit, it was actually supposed to be a Cat A working tandem. The student was trained for roughly 45 minutes on the ground and had no indication he would do that. He was a few bricks shy, but didn't seem like the type to freeze up. It was a diving exit from the door of a 182, an exit that I do quite often (or did until we got a turbine) and really hadn't had any real problems with until that jump. Sure, not all of my exits were perfect, but nothing like that.

Let me see if I can describe the body position of the student...

He let go of his harness, brought his arms in front of him, elbows bent at 90-ish deg, left arm lower then the front arm. His legs were bent under him slightly and "cocked" like a pair of scissors. Basically turning his body into a propeller.

That would have been a "fun" student for a couple AFF instructors if he would have wanted to do a CAT A/AFF1 dive.

This happened back in November (if I remember correctly) and was around my 200th tandem or so.

What can be learned from this? Sometimes students will just flat out surprise you, so be prepaired for anything and sometimes even when you're prepaired, something different and bad can happen.

The few jumps I do an intentional flip on tend to be very stable, a quick flip out the door with the student tucked, "flare" out of the flip and toss the drogue, works like a champ. Just not something I like doing very often (intentionally).

Now, I've had some other *fun* tandems where I was fighting the student then entire time, having to leg lock them and grab their wrists to pull them into something that is workable, but nothing serious that caused me to hold the drogue or toss the drogue unstable.


"You're not supposed to throw the drogue unstable, you're not supposed to burn in either..." -Bram


(Oh, I really haven't posted about this and didn't when it happened, since I knew the only thing that would come of the post was a serious flame fest, which would be pointless).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

Nope.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

Well, I guess I was the only TM "brave" (aka stupid ) enough to share their bad experience. There should be some others, looking at the poll, but I guess we won't know.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Tonto 1]

Not the only one... I had about 550 tandems when this happened...

I had a relatively big student out of a C-210 front door on exit, he pulled his legs up straight, so was bent forward at 90 degrees. We ended up on our side, drouge down. I fought it for about 6 seconds, but we were going really fast - and I was worried about losing the camera - and I threw the drouge. It hit me on the right shoulder and stuck there. About this time, we started to spin VERY fast. I tried twice to clear the entanglement and failed. (Video at this time puts our turn at about 6 rotations per second, or about 90 degrees per frame)
I didn't think I'd survive that disorientation very well for much longer and fired the reserve, hoping it would clear the mess on my back.

It did, and we ended up at 8000ft (After an exit from 10 000ft) with line twists most of the way up the lines.

It was interesting to note that mentally, I was struggling to grasp the concept of fighting for my life 6 seconds out the door and felt well behind the curve.

I cocked up hugely by throwing the drouge at the time I did. I sent the video to all the Tandem evaluators in South Africa - and its shown to every new TM out here - so others have had the oportunity to learn from the mistakes I made.

The student? LOVED the dive.

Go figure...

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[crutch 0]

Dave, I don't mind talking about mine...hell, I hope someone will respect doing tandems more if I tell them how dangerous it can get.

I have been in three side-spins. The first one caught me completely off guard. I used to be extra careful with the large students (200 lbs and above), but have found it is the smaller ones that get you into trouble. Each time the scenario has been pretty similar. Someone in the 140 to 160 lb range who seemed pretty heads-up during the breifing. Stable exits that rolled into a side-spin about two to three seconds out of the door. I have been very lucky in that all of them have been with the left side down (no apparent reason for this either). Threw the drogue about the fourth time around and kept skydiving.

Now I do flips on exits (no side-spins since beginning this). I teach first-timers a whole lot less and spend much more time talking about anything but the skydive in the plane. I try to project a lot of confidence, and talk very little of the things that could go wrong, if at all. I have also started leaving the harness a little looser than I ever thought possible ten years ago.

I haven't been in a side-spin in about 2000 tandems now (8 years) and it definitely has kept my hair from graying any faster than it was meant to!

blue skies,

art

[riggerrob 643]

Only one side spin, thank god!

The student was about my size, but clearly of "gentle birth." Read: zero muscle tone.

He dropped his knees right after exit. We lay on our left sides and started to spin. The rate of acceleration amazed me.
I jammed my heels into the tops of his knees to push them into an arch.
We flattened out and I tossed the drogue.
Then he dropped his knees again and we resumed rocking all over the sky.
So I jammed my heels into the tops of his knees for the rest of the drogue fall. He landed with massive bruises on his knees a small price to pay for almost killing us twice!

Note: Strong Enterprises recommends a different solution to side spins.

I have lost count of how many students have gone fetal on me, fully extended their legs or done weird moves that are beyond description. Nowadays I just amuse myself by seeing how far I have to extend my legs to reduce ossicilations.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I have only been taken on a couple of real "rides", but have never gotten in a side-spin scenario. I seriously believe that those mostly happen to "drogue happy" people who are intent on getting it in the wind in five (or less) seconds no matter what. If you have a weak exit and you start reaching back for your drogue right away, then you have effectively taken away one of your control surfaces. If I get taken over on an exit (for any reason) it's not a big deal because I am flying my body until I am face to the wind before I ever reach back for the drogue. The absolute worst rides I have been on were with small girls doing the "cat off the roof" impersonation.

Chuck

[SickMonkey 0]

I've been on three good rides. The best one was an experienced jumper's girlfriend. As we left the King Air I work out of, I could see her hands and feet directly out in front of us and we were off to the races. I immediately arched as we left but between the fast jump run and her crappy body position I was screwed. I wrapped her up, flipped us over, arched, and pitched out. On the ground after the jump, she said something about forgetting to arch and remembering later on during the jump. I didn't say anything to her, but I sure wanted to. Good Times.

[airgord 1]

Those who have, those who will.

[diablopilot 2]

You could be right...

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

I have only been taken on a couple of real "rides", but have never gotten in a side-spin scenario. I seriously believe that those mostly happen to "drogue happy" people who are intent on getting it in the wind in five (or less) seconds no matter what.

Have to disagree with you there. I have been in one four thousand foot side spin and a couple of "here it comes" situations where I rolled over and got out of it before it got wound up.
When I watch Bill Morrisey's side spin video and commentary, and think back on the jumps, I have to conclude that they were all caused by trying to force the tandem into position rather than just getting big and finessing our body position when the student misbehaved. I was not reaching for the drougue on any of them.
When I have been lazy and drougue happy I have on occasion rolled over toward my side. This, however, has never caused a spin. I do not believe side spins are so much connected to accidentally presenting your side so much as creating the 'side spin profile' which will find its own way into the side down attitude.
BTW All three of the above mentioned students were both taller than, and lighter than me.

[crutch 0]

Your first thought when it happens to you will be "this is what those guys were talking about!"

blue skies,

art

[skydiver30960 0]

Had a sidespin once, but I saw it coming and was able to head it off before it good too bad. The recovery procedures work!

Had one or two give me some work, usually little girls: their legs are so short (and mine so long) it's a pain in the ass getting the legs trapped if they start wandering...

Elvisio "ride 'em, cowboy" Rodriguez

[skydiverton 0]

A couple of times a single flip, but I never HAD to wait with my droque more than 5 second.
I never used my droque to gain stability, always normal recovery
I think it is not a good habid to use your droque to gain stability

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Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I think it is not a good habid to use your droque to gain stability

Its not a good habit. Although, you're not supposed to burn in either. Sometimes you may not have a choice, it can happen.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydiverton 0]

Of course I do not plan to burn in.

I only state it is a bad habid to use your droque as an easy way to gain stability as some guys do.

If you have to do it ok. I see it as some kind of emergency procedure.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

A couple of times a single flip, but I never HAD to wait with my droque more than 5 second.
I never used my droque to gain stability, always normal recovery
I think it is not a good habit to use your droque to gain stability

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Correct!

However, sometimes you have a really bad day and sometimes you have a really bad student and sometimes ONLY way you can get stable is a well-timed drogue toss as you roll over for the third time.
Not pretty and not a good habit, but some days the drogue is the only thing that will get you stable.

There are two types of tandem instructors: those who have been taken for a ride and those who will ...

[Macarena 0]

The number of "rides" should be related to the total number of jumps. 1 "ride" out of 5 tandems is bad. 1 "ride" out of 1,000 tandems is no big deal.

[RickH 0]

If you haven't.....you will.....treat every passenger like "the one" and hopefully you will prolong it enough until you have enough experience to deal with it...until that day...have fun..Tandem is not just another skydive...

[Schoenauer 0]

My two rides took place around 600 tandems when I was still cocky and invincible. The two occasions happened within a hundred jumps of each other and were eye-openers.

The first lasted over five seconds until the drogue was out a textbook sidespin with the drogue side down. I fallowed the recovery procedure outlined in the video by Bill Morrissey of Strong Enterprises at the time, “Side Spin Phenomena”. I had practice the recovery several time during a solo jump but was amazed with a student in front how fast it went from good at the door to bad.

The second time we rolled to our side after the exit and stalled there not turning with the drogue up, so drogue out. We were on our sides less then five seconds.


Both immediately happened on exit we just fell right into it and in hindsight, my exit technique and our body positions were to blame.

Memento Mori

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Quote

The number of "rides" should be related to the total number of jumps. 1 "ride" out of 5 tandems is bad. 1 "ride" out of 1,000 tandems is no big deal.

WOW! Way to bring a nine-year-old thread back to life!

REST IN PEACE, TONTO!!!! BSBD!


Since the thread seems to have come back, I'll add my two cents by saying I get taken for a good ride about once a year. I also get vomited on (badly) about once a year, and I also have one tremendously sketchy AFF jump about once a year. If you have not, then you haven't been doing it long enough.

Chuck

[steveorino 7]

The only ride I had in 1700 tandems was my hell dive with TI Evaluator. Wicked side spin. I flip out of a Cessna DZ 85% of the time. Hook 'em up correctly -- fly your body -- stay calm. works for me.

steveOrino

[JohnMitchell 16]

SkymonkeyONE

REST IN PEACE, TONTO!!!! BSBD!

Amen to that. Miss ya, Tonto.

[towerrat 0]

I'm with Chuck on this one. Going for a ride isn't necessarily a sidespin. Sometimes you just get taken for a ride. I just keep calm, go about my business and pitch the drogue at the appropriate time. Anyone with any number of tandem skydives has had a less than optimal exit and drogue throw. If you haven't, you will or you'll lie about it

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!