buzzfink 5 #1 July 20, 2004 Here is the new age BSR from the latest USPA meeting: The requirement for tandem jumpers to be at least age of legal majority was removed from the BSRs. Now all skydivers, regardless of type jump, must meet the same requirements: 18 years of age or 16 with notarized parental or guardian consent. What do you think???? Buzz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 July 20, 2004 Not in Texas, since even if every single living relative signed the release of liability, the state or outside parties could still sue and win. Simpily because the release of liability is a contract, in TX you have to be 18 to enter into a contract.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #3 July 20, 2004 Ditto for Cali.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #4 July 20, 2004 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22bill+booth%22+tandem+waiver+consent+contract&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=20020719125750.01999.00001738%40mb-md.aol.com&rnum=1 Note point #5. Does the USPA think this is no longer true???"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #5 July 20, 2004 Does this apply to AFF now as well? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #6 July 20, 2004 QuoteDoes this apply to AFF now as well? The USPA already has 16 as the minimum age for AFF. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #7 July 20, 2004 We will ABSOLUTELY use it at Raeford as well as my dad's dropzone in Alabama. It is ridiculous that we have been training 16 year-olds to skydive since I was a toddler, yet have not been able to take 16 year olds on much-safer tandems. edited to add that I will not hesitate to take any 16 year old on a tandem with my own rig either. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #8 July 20, 2004 I would be very surprised to find Crosskeys letting 16 year olds out on tandems. I think there have only ever been 2 people who were allowed to do AFF under the age of 18 and they were both relatives of long time locals. The only exception would maybe be kids who were locals and even then, I wouldn't count on it. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #9 July 20, 2004 QuoteWe will ABSOLUTELY use it at Raeford I agree, as long as it passes through the next wicket, which I see as being Relative Workshop changing their previous stance (read it here). This being, of course, since the primary tandem rig used at Raeford is the Sigma. I have already told one of the owners of the school that I could fill an entire weekend tandem day with people I have turned away because their kids were not yet 18. [whine] I hope it changes, if for no other reason than I won't have to explain the backwards sounding age limitations between AFF training and a Tandem. [/whine] This will be interesting to watch.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tspillers 0 #10 July 20, 2004 Not correcting Aggie Dave, but Aggieland's answer is I don't know. I have to consult our lawyer and see. My suspicion is that it will be the same as before due to the risks and taking them without a waiver. We don't currently take anyone under 18. I would like to change it, but unless things have changed on the legal side, I doubt we will. Todd I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 July 20, 2004 Hey, you're the boss and I'm more then sure that your lawyer knows Texas law better then I do...well, I hope he does.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcords 0 #12 July 21, 2004 We live in a sue happy society and our only protection is the waiver. Take someone skydiving (AFF, tandem, static-line or IAD) under the age of legal consent (which I believe can be as high as 21 in some states), and the impression that I have been given is that you may as well hand your aircraft, facilities and first born child over, should they chose to sue you. Not to mention exposing the gear manufacturers and any other corporations that have any assets to tremendous losses. I can not imagine why anyone would want to do that. It has the potential to leave less skydiving places around for the jumpers to jump at, and less equipment for jumpers to choose from. Remember they don't even have to win the law suit, just the cost of defending the suit is astronomical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #13 July 21, 2004 I checked with an attorney (well, a couple actually) and in Oklahoma a parent cannot sign away a child's rights. They can buy them a brand new shiny corvette at 16, but they cannot sign away their right to sue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #14 July 21, 2004 Charge them $1000 and include a trip to europe! No problems here, I've done tandems with people from 10 till 80years ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #15 July 21, 2004 Quote No problems here, I've done tandems with people from 10 till 80years Yeee Haw! Set up a booth right next to the ferris wheel.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #16 July 21, 2004 QuoteWe will ABSOLUTELY use it at Raeford as well as my dad's dropzone in Alabama. It is ridiculous that we have been training 16 year-olds to skydive since I was a toddler, yet have not been able to take 16 year olds on much-safer tandems. edited to add that I will not hesitate to take any 16 year old on a tandem with my own rig either. Chuck - A child under 18 cannot enter into a legally binding contract. - A parent cannot sign away a child's right to sue. - Therefore a valid waiver cannot exist for a child under 18. So if we aren't going to require a valid waiver for people UNDER 18, why require it for people OVER 18?"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #17 July 21, 2004 If you can teach people to skydive at 16, which we have been doing since I was born, then it's ridiculous to not be able to take them on a tandem. Once again, I can promise you that our dropzone will immediately start doing so once all the gates are cleared. Also, I, as an independant contractor, will not hesitate to do so with my Racer once the word is given. If you live your life in fear of being sued, then you might as well just not ever get any sort of instructional rating or start any skydiving-related business. I don't have such fears. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #18 July 21, 2004 QuoteIf you can teach people to skydive at 16, which we have been doing since I was born, then it's ridiculous to not be able to take them on a tandem. Once again, I can promise you that our dropzone will immediately start doing so once all the gates are cleared. Also, I, as an independant contractor, will not hesitate to do so with my Racer once the word is given. If you live your life in fear of being sued, then you might as well just not ever get any sort of instructional rating or start any skydiving-related business. I don't have such fears. And again the question: So if we aren't going to require a valid waiver for people UNDER 18, why require it for people OVER 18? If the DZ's turn someone away at 16, they will likely be back at 18. Most people only ever make one jump, so you will still get their money for that jump. So what have you gained for giving up the protection of the waiver? Nothing."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #19 July 21, 2004 Bottom line is that waivers do not stop anyone from suing you. Especially if you ARE negligent in any way, then waiver or not, you will lose. But if you are NOT negligent, and you get sued, then the waiver and contract allows you to countersue for legal fees, etc. If they are 16, the contract is meaningless. But you could have the family sign the contract, then you still have someone to sue for your costs should they decide to sue you later on when they turn 18. By then, the people that signed your contract are probably moved on, or at least it would be quite a difficult paper trail you would have to produce. I would be in favor of it if we did something like Perris, where we record and catalog on video their statements of acceptance of the risks, as well as have the paper trail to follow. I think at that point, you could mount a considerable defense. However, if you actually did fuck up and hurt someone, then it is all moot. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #20 July 21, 2004 QuoteIf you can teach people to skydive at 16 I completely agree that kids should be able to skydive. I hope to have kids someday, and I will get my tandem rating expressly for the purpose of taking them skydiving. Either that, or I'll just have SkyMonkey do it But I don't think it will be long before a 16-y/o is hurt and their parents sue. It's all about the risk you are willing to take. BillBooth is making that statement that if you do it with his gear, you are also putting his company at risk, as well as the USPA and your dropzone. USPA says that it's OK to take a 16 y/o. Your dropzone may say it's OK, and it's OK with you. So if you can jibe it with the gear manufacturer, then everyone's willing to accept the risk and there's no problem. I know in Colorado, a minor (under 18) can't even ENTER a legal agreement legally, so if they sign anything, it's not binding. Also, I know (at least it used to be) that a parent could not sign away their child's rights here as well. That makes both signatures (parent and minor) not-binding, which will probably get the waiver thrown out in court.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudwlking 1 #21 July 21, 2004 Just a question for the lawyers out there, in Texas a parent signs for a 16 year old to get their drivers license. It's a conditional license and can be taken away utill they turn 18. This would seem a comparable event to signing a waiver for anything including skydiving. or is it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #22 July 21, 2004 QuoteJust a question for the lawyers out there, in Texas a parent signs for a 16 year old to get their drivers license. It's a conditional license and can be taken away utill they turn 18. This would seem a comparable event to signing a waiver for anything including skydiving. or is it? This is the opposite situation. Rather than RELEASING someone from liability, the person doing the signing is ASSUMING liability. Example: http://www.dot.state.az.us/mvd/azwelcome.htm#ObtainALicense "If you are under 18, your application for an instruction permit or driver license must be signed by at least one adult. The adult will be responsible for any negligence or willful misconduct when you are driving.""There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #23 July 21, 2004 Users of Relative Workshop Tandem equipment: Please be aware that this change in the BSR's does not free you from your contactual responsibility not to allow anyone "below the age of majority" to use our tandem equipment. It is paragraph 11 in your User Agreement. Waivers are available from Relative Workshop for extraordinary circumstances. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #24 July 21, 2004 We will still not take "whuffo" children on tandems (or any other skydive) till they turn 18 because of the liability issue. Note I'm referring to "whuffo" children. My daughter has been hanging around DZ's for several years now, knows how to pack, knows the tandem videos verbatim, has done homework assignments on skydiving, etc. This BSR change happened on 7/18/2004, which just so happened to be my daughter's 16th birthday. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #25 July 21, 2004 QuoteSo if we aren't going to require a valid waiver for people UNDER 18, why require it for people OVER 18? Great fucking point. If the student is under the age of majority in that particular state, there is no use in having the waiver. Period. Just let them show and go, since it's the same effect, and less time. If your state allows the age of majority at 16, then fine. Make them do the waiver. Where do I see this going? I see places like the Uninsured Relative Workshop entering into agreements with DZ's stating either, "You will not use this gear for a passenger under the age of 18" and/or "DZ will indemnify and hold harmless [manufacturer] for all incidents involving the use of this equipment with a passenger under the age of 18." The manufacturers may eventually simply not send the tandem equipment to DZ's that allow tandem passengers under the age of majority for that state. Be aware.... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
