Tandems hooking up before take-off?

[feuergnom 28]

funny - its almost the same people giving the same answers....

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[tsalnukt 1]

Doesm't mean that we can't talk about some more.

[jvcvudu 0]

King Air with two benches (straddle facing tail), standard practice at the DZ I jump at is to attach both lowers, loosened, as soon as passenger is seated in front of us. I have been in Otters where the passenger sits by my side until almost full altitude, then attach all and tighten....same with a SkyVan.

[rhys 0]

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King Air with two benches (straddle facing tail), standard practice at the DZ I jump at is to attach both lowers, loosened, as soon as passenger is seated in front of us. I have been in Otters where the passenger sits by my side until almost full altitude, then attach all and tighten....same with a SkyVan.

Why do you find it necessary to attach in the king air when in the other you do not? Is there a reason to attach or is it just habit?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[bclark 0]

I think the phrase "standard practice at the DZ I jump at" explains alot of it. There is always a tendency to want to fit. Which in the case of a safety practice can be a good or bad thing. I think it is important for us to think about what we are doing, and the possibilities, and to form our working habits accordingly.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

In a turbine, I always have the student sitting between my legs and always attach the two lower straps prior to takeoff.

[rhys 0]

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I think the phrase "standard practice at the DZ I jump at" explains alot of it. There is always a tendency to want to fit. Which in the case of a safety practice can be a good or bad thing. I think it is important for us to think about what we are doing, and the possibilities, and to form our working habits accordingly.

yeah I know what you are saying, I see instructors attaching thhier passengers single point restraints to the hooks on the back of the harness, once i asked a guy;

"What happens if you die and he doesn't, how does he get out"?

I saw him attach by the belly band after that.

i have been told to do things that are not sensable as an TM a number of times, and sometime you have to weigh up you livleyhood against using common sence. it can be a sackable offence to use common sence at certain places.

it is a frustrating world sometimes!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[riggerrob 643]

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I think the phrase "standard practice at the DZ I jump at" explains alot of it. There is always a tendency to want to fit. Which in the case of a safety practice can be a good or bad thing. I think it is important for us to think about what we are doing, and the possibilities, and to form our working habits accordingly.

yeah I know what you are saying, I see instructors attaching thier passengers single point restraints to the hooks on the back of the harness, once i asked a guy;

"What happens if you die and he doesn't, how does he get out"?

I saw him attach by the belly band after that.

i have been told to do things that are not sensable as an TM a number of times, and sometime you have to weigh up you livleyhood against using common sence. it can be a sackable offence to use common sence at certain places.

it is a frustrating world sometimes!

..........................................................................

Hah!
Hah!

Welcome to the world of skydiving!
Every DZ has different procedures.
The scary thing is that half the people do not remember why they do things differently.
The quickest way to get fired - at a new DZ - is to jump in exact compliance with procedures at the last DZ you worked at!
Some DZOs get furious when you follow USPA procedures to the letter!
Go figure?????????

[feuergnom 28]

i am still wondering why you brought up the question again - you care to explain?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[riggerrob 643]

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i am still wondering why you brought up the question again - you care to explain?

......................................................................

Local TIs keep inventing new techniques (dressing, packing, training, exiting, landing, etc.) - techniques that I have never seen before - which differ from Strong Enterprises' techniques - and I am trying to figure out why.

Did they see the new technique at another DZ?
Did they hear about the technique from another DZ?
Does another tandem manufacturer recommend a different technique?

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[djmarvin 2]

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i am still wondering why you brought up the question again - you care to explain?

If we didn't continue to question why and how we do things we may still be jumping rounds. The best way to keep our sport evoloving is to question the status quo. (not rock the boat, but have intelligent conversations) Over the years that I have done tandems these types of questions have made me a better instructor and hearing "new" thoughts on "old" questions have been the core of that growth.

Whether these questions bring about a new way of doing our job or just a reminder of things we don't think about often enough, revisiting them is valuable learning opportunity for those who were not around for the last version of this conversation and a reminder for those of us who were. Thanks to the original poster for pushing us to think about how we do our job in keeping ourselves and new jumpers safe.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[baronn 111]

Interesting how inconsistent the answers are here. All of us went thru a Tandem course and yet, very different answers. The reality is, if you're in an emergency situation below a safe exit altitude, your student will have a higher chance of survival if they don't have to lug an unconcious or even concious TI out with them. or , a TI will have a better chance of survival if they don't have to lug out a student. You should not be hooked up much before the belt is off. The lowers are not going to do that much for the student. If only those are hooked up, this will put all their weight on your lower back. If the opening shock doesn't injure you then dealing with an upside down frantic student should be piece of cake. Most of their weight should be supported by the uppers where their weight is put on the canopy where it belongs. In an emergency, it would be better to have them on and the lowers not even connected. As was stated earlier, you can always just wrap the legs and get out. This is something every instructor should consider on every ride to altitude. Put a plan together and be ready. There won't be time to think one up if the stuff goes sideways. Hopefully, you may never need it.++

[weavermc 0]

We had this 'debate' with our instructors last year and I emailed USPA and UPT for their input - simply put, it was "each skydiver requires their own seat belt during taxi, takeoff and landing."

Backwards planning from that, each student gets their own seatbelt, and I (personally) hook up the lowers after 1,500' I do the full hook up and tighten down at approximately 10k (for either a 15K or 18K Tandem).

If there is an emergency exit below that, I want to be free of my student (and vice versa) - above that, i'm assuming we've had a succesful takeoff, and can do a quick uppers-hook up and exit in an emergency (or disconnect lowers and re-attach seatbelt if a problem develops between 1500' and 4K).

[riggerrob 643]

During rushed - low altitude - bail-outs Strong Enterprises recommends attaching a minimum of two snaps (one shoulder and one hip) diagonally opposite.
If time permits, the more snaps, the better.

The disadvantage of only attaching shoulder snaps is that you risk the student rotating upwards and backwards and breaking the TI's neck ... as happened during the very first tandem fatality.

[riggerrob 643]

"

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sorry, no seat belts in 182's and 206's here -"

.........................................................................

Then your DZ is at least 17 years behind the times.
Does no-one remember the fatal crashes back in 1992?

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[riggerrob 643]

"- so the early bail-out-scenario seems more realistic to me

[AggieDave 6]

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If an airplane engine survives those two power changes, it will probably survive all the way to jump altitude.

You say that, but I've seen a 182 throw part of a rod through the top of the case around 3,000ft. It was an improperly manufactured main bolt, BUT it still happened.

Then again, the plane I was on lost power around 200ft and we had no option but hope the pilot did well. Obviously he did.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[deadwood 0]

Can you give me the source of those statistics?
I work in flight safety and am always looking for new data.


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I disagree.

Statistically, airplane engines are most likely to fail during major power changes.

The first major power change is when the engine spools up during take-off.
IOW the first time it is asked to provide full power.
The second major power change occurs at 800 or a thousand feet, when the pilot reduces power to maximum continuous.
If an airplane engine survives those two power changes, it will probably survive all the way to jump altitude.

[riggerrob 643]

Sorry, but I cannot quote exact statistics.

This was derived from an old pilot briefing a junior jump pilot.
He used a vast simplification to explain that jump plane engines often fail during the first power reduction, ergo she should wait until she is high enough to glide back to a runway before adjusting power settings.

If you want to examine statistics in detail, you will probably find that the leading cause of jump plane engine failures is running the tanks dry.

[deadwood 0]

Thats not an engine failure. ;-)


If you want to examine statistics in detail, you will probably find that the leading cause of jump plane engine failures is running the tanks dry.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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If you want to examine statistics in detail, you will probably find that the leading cause of jump plane engine failures is running the tanks dry.

Ain't that the truth.

[AdD 1]

I used to hook up prior to takeoff until i had to bail out of a 185 with flames coming out of the engine attached to my passenger, now i prefer seatbelts.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[gjhdiver 0]

Lower hooks as soon as we sit down, uppers at 5000 feet.

The lower hooks because we open the door at 1000 feet for cooling the cabin and I want my passenger secured to me, and also because I want to make sure they are connected properly before others sit down against me and obscure my view of them. Currently we use a PAC 750 or King Air A-90.

I don't hook anything up in the Cessna 206 because they are belted in and sitting behind me. We both turn 180 degrees and connect and tighten all four hooks 1500 feet prior to exit altitude.

(A lesson in this happened last year when a TI hooked the right lower hook to the secondary main handle housing instead of the ring it was meant to hook to in a crowded aircraft. Upon drogue throw, it deployed the main.)

I have installed quick release cords on both lower hook releases. If there is a problem that would require a forced landing, I can remove them instantly without even having to look at them.

[diablopilot 2]

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The lower hooks because we open the door at 1000 feet for cooling the cabin and I want my passenger secured to me,

I'm going to disagree with that practice. My students are belted to the aircraft, using a separate seat belt than my own until I'm at an altitude I'd be comfortable exiting with them on my reserve. That's between 2000 and 2500 ft depending on aircraft and my seating in it.

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I have installed quick release cords on both lower hook releases.

I've gone back and forth on using these, a couple of years ago I had a student release the right lower in freefall when they attempted to deploy.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[johnny1488 1]

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I have installed quick release cords on both lower hook releases. If there is a problem that would require a forced landing, I can remove them instantly without even having to look at them.

I know a few guys who used them on the sigma passenger harness, and they bent the quick ejectors enough to make it very difficult to close them all the way and harder to release them. They are quick ejectors to make them easy to release. If yours aren't I might check them out or how tight you are making them.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome