Back flip exit on tandem

[docjohn 0]

This photo shows why doing flips with a tandem are a bad idea. That's the reserve bridal out and the reserve pilot chute is still in the plane. Imagine what doing a flip here could do

Doc
http://www.manifestmaster.com/video

[phantomII 37]

This photo shows why you should take care of your equipment and be careful while moving around in the plane.

Just my 2 cents.

[legalize1966 0]

What is your beef with Jeff?
You seem to be focused on him a lot, you like him?
I see where you claim you used to work for skyride did he do you wrong at work around the water cooler or some thing?

This sure seems like a personal witch hunt.
Besides he didn't do any thing wrong in that video, obvious by the lack of the safety nazis responses.

[Driver1 0]

I will be glad to answer that question,
First and foremost, I don't have any problem with Jeff, and you will notice when I posted some of the other videos, they were not all him.
Secondly, if he don't want to get those kind of instances to be posted on Youtube and subsequently here on DZ.com, then don't do the back flips, cloud busting, animal jumps or whatever else he decides to do. You and he both know that since you support and defend a criminal organization, we are looking and we are going to post it. If I miss something, chances are, Billy, Napier, Matt or someone else will pick up on it and post it.
So if you wonder why these videos keep showing up and they are of Jeff, well, he has seemingly become the "face" of your DZ, so if he does those type of jumps, his passengers will usually post it on You Tube, and well, We get it from there,, Non-discriminately. He just happens to be the one who keeps defying the BSR's and seems to be trying to impress someone. I've seen plenty of videos of him doing good clean tandems and I will openly say, the guy is a hell of a good TI, but the stupidness, or to be more politically correct, the poor judgement he sometimes displays overrides the good that he does.

It seems to me that since your owners lost in Eloy, that the Federal court has deemed them as Criminals as well.

There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

[Jumpdude 0]

Don't forget his continued blatant disregard for copyright laws when adding the music to the videos that get posted on You-tube by the customer, then gets flagged for copyright violations. The result is yet another screwed over, pissed off sLyride customer.

Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

[PORKr 0]

Quote

What is the point to doing back flips out of a King Air?

Scanned the whole thread and never found the answer I hoped that someone else has noticed about the BENEFIT to the customer using back-flips (or front flips) on exit.
DISCLAIMER: my 1299 tandems were mostly from Cessnas, mostly poised from the step and ALL before 1996. I was only a Tandem Examiner for 10 years or so.

TI's: Can you relate with the concept of reading the back of the customers head to interpret his or her level of awareness. (The tell-tale-pre-puke-head-bob is perhaps the most demonstrative of their head-cues.) But there are others more subtle.

For the last several years of my tandem career, back-flip exits were OFFERED to every passenger and nearly ALL opted to DO the back-flip, especially if the first customer in a group had done so and reported the enjoyment.
I could tell when a student was mentally present - not in sensory overload - and enjoying the freefall by head movements; looking at landmarks, responding to the cameraman etcetera.

I noticed that back-flip passengers were instantly alert after the backflips while poised stable passengers took longer to "wake up" and get into the amazing new environment.

Here's the theory. The sensations of the poised exits were NOT what they expected to feel but flips were EXACTLY as expected.
So rather than begining the descent stable, but with an inexplicable sensory experience and the time-space disorentation of that sensory overload delivered then, the flippers entered space with blue-green-blue-green visuals - AS EXPECTED - and the remaining experience was instantly more conscious, more conected, more memorable, less overloading, etc.

It's only a theory. Just like the carnival pony analogy that burned me out. Tip the plane of the carnival pony's path 90 degrees and the saddle 180 degrees and you have the job description of the TI. Here we go round stop & round stop & round stop. oof Yike's I'm a pack animal. been there done that

[legalize1966 0]

SO, it is not a skill issue, as it is a non-skydiving related issue? Still sounds personal.

If the AST Instructors are so bad why are ALL the other TN DZ's trying to hirethem off all the time?

When you caused us a stumble for a week ALL the Staff had work at any DZ they wanted, they are that skilled.

I can go to youtube and look at thousands of videos, but I have a life, and even find the President of USPA on a skydive docking on a tandem that uses the drogue for stability. Where is your out rage? We should have the PresidenTs ratings suspended!

[alabamaskydiver 0]

That guy needs a rating pulled.

[chuckakers 426]

Quote

...and the ones that only ever do poised exits (in most cases) tend to be the ones that are not comfortable with what they are doing.

If I was a TI that only did poised exits, I'd be insulted by that remark. To assume that TI's that do poised exits "tend to be the ones that are not comfortable with what they are doing" is a big leap.

My guess is the TI's that only do poised exits do so for the most part because they have always done them that way and don't see any need to do anything else. I don't see anything there that calls a TI's skills or comfort level into question.

Neither do the manufacturers.

I bet there are as many TI's doing only poised exits that are "uncomfortable with what they are doing" as there are TI's that experiment because of poor overall judgment.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[gearless_chris 1]

At one of my 182 dz's the DZO likes the poised exit for video, because they don't loose a few precious seconds getting stable, the customer gets a better quality video.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

At one of my 182 dz's the DZO likes the poised exit for video, because they don't loose a few precious seconds getting stable, the customer gets a better quality video.

The 182 poised exit is one I refuse to do; if the student goes up you grind your pack against the door. It is also the one that is hardest on the TMs back if the student isn't helping.

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

At one of my 182 dz's the DZO likes the poised exit for video, because they don't loose a few precious seconds getting stable, the customer gets a better quality video.

The 182 poised exit is one I refuse to do; if the student goes up you grind your pack against the door.

This can happen at any time during climb out, no matter what exit you are doing.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

At one of my 182 dz's the DZO likes the poised exit for video, because they don't loose a few precious seconds getting stable, the customer gets a better quality video.

The 182 poised exit is one I refuse to do; if the student goes up you grind your pack against the door.

This can happen at any time during climb out, no matter what exit you are doing.

True but the motion if I am diving out will not catch my reserve flap.

[flydog 0]

As a 182 pilot I hate the poised exit. All that time spent getting on the step, student raising upand not letting go. Its only time before someone gets shit over the tail. Just dive out. Either sitting back to dash or kneeling in door facing forward. Both those ways keep the shit in the plane until your leaving. No fucking around on the step forever.

[gearless_chris 1]

At one of the other 182 dz's I jump at, they dive out with just their left feet on the step. That way the rig stays out of the airstream for the most part. I like it better because the student is facing me on exit, makes for better pictures. They go to 11,000 so IF they tumble a bit there's still plenty of time left. I appreciate not having to hang out on the step as long also.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[douwanto 22]

Thats the reason poised exits are not recommended from Cessna's any more, just like not backing out of side door aircraft is you put the drogue into the airflow before you intend to exit the aircraft this has great potential for disaster. As we all know moving around in a Cessna after hookup is a bit like a bull in a china shop. If the drogue or bridle catch something or even the door after you have checked it your going to be in a pickle.

Once you reach out the door to position yourself and student on the strut it is impossible to check and manage the drogue until completing your exit. If I am working with anyone who has to do poised exits I always leave first...... take tooooooo long and toooooo dangerous for me...

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[douwanto 22]

Thats one big ass SKY HOOK in that picture...

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[legalize1966 0]

It is still in the manuals and the videos, so how is it not recomended?

Plus with all these "I don't do it" folks, how are you teaching or are you the reason we have the "carnival" ride attitude in the industry now?

[rhys 0]

Quote

Plus with all these "I don't do it" folks, how are you teaching or are you the reason we have the "carnival" ride attitude in the industry now?

Ha, I love these type of comments.

Tandem skyding is, for the most part a carnival ride.

At my current DZ we will do more than 150 tandems a day on the weekends, only a very small proportion of them are interested in taking up skydiving as a sport.

It is each individual that decides whether or not they wish to be a skydiver, not the instructor.

Almost all of my 'customers' get to fly the parachute, the only ones that do not are the people that 'do not want to' I usually try to pursuade them but if they insist, who am I to say that they have to do so?

My 'breifing' is a one minute discussion in the aircraft, immediately prior to exit, The students are all briefed generically on the ground by our GCO's before the instcutors even meet them.

I focus on giving the 'customers' a great time and making them more 'relaxed'.

I have found that too much unecessary information (overlearning) can make them less comfortable and not have as much fun.

If they decide to take up skydiving they will have all the opportunity to learn the required actions in the classroom in thier AFF or static line training, The first tandem jump should be purely fun!

They do not pay that money to have some self proclaimed guru, spew out so much information that they simply 'turn off' to what is being said.

If a customer asks to pull the ripcord they can, I will train them, sometimes I ask them (always on their second jump!), but for the most part I give them what they came for...

... a 'good time' jumping from an airplane.

Second time jumpers are a different story, I always make it more interesting for them, and explain the canopy control and set up to them.

Some don't care and just want a back flip, so i give it to them (if they are relaxed)!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[alabamaskydiver 0]

In the US Tandems are too be Instructional, where you jump maybe not. But those who choose to ignore the FAR's will some day be in a court room like the yahoos in Ohio.

It is this poor instructional attitude of "carnival ride" that is why tandems have such a low retention rate. I think tandems should go away (unless they are MANDATED to follow a set instructional path.

[tetra316 0]

Quote

In the US Tandems are too be Instructional, where you jump maybe not. But those who choose to ignore the FAR's will some day be in a court room like the yahoos in Ohio.

It is this poor instructional attitude of "carnival ride" that is why tandems have such a low retention rate. I think tandems should go away (unless they are MANDATED to follow a set instructional path.

If tandems "go away" then otters/skyvans will go away. We will be back to only 182 jumps. Who do you think pays for those otters? NOT the fun jumpers with their $25 ticket.

I personally think we should give the students what they want. Give them the choice of a SAFE "carnival ride" or the choice of real instruction designed to preceed AFF or what ever method you offer. In order to support the type of jumping a lot of us are used to carnival type mass tandems are needed. I for one am selfish enough to admit it. I'd rather jump an otter any day (well most days) over a 182 given the choice.

[rhys 0]

Quote

In the US Tandems are too be Instructional, where you jump maybe not. But those who choose to ignore the FAR's will some day be in a court room like the yahoos in Ohio.

Enlighten me as to what happened in Ohio?

Where does it say that tandems must be instructional?

Quote

It is this poor instructional attitude of "carnival ride" that is why tandems have such a low retention rate.

So that is why we are doing over 150 tandems on a Saturday and Sunday here, are you suggesting all of these people would like to take up skydiving and that is why they come to do tandems?

They come to;

Overcome thier fear of heights,

Show off to thier mates,

Try something different,

Fullfill their 'bucket list'

and sometime they come because they want to learn to skydive, they can book in for a first jump course if they please, just not at our company because we land in a public park, fly over the city and ocean and One must have a display license to jump there.

Are you suhgesting the busiest dropzone in Australia is in a bad location doing a bad thing offering a ride of a lifeltime with amazing views of the ocean, city, escarpment and beyond?

that is why the flock in numbers, stiffo instructors that are 'all about the arch' are boring!

i don't even tell them to arch, i tell them to try to realx and lt the relative wind put thier arms and legs in place.

if they want to skydive they can sign up for a first jumo course, if they want to smash out a jumpo for thier birthday, bucks party, anneversary... as the majority of our custmers do, we provide the for them and they often return, not to learn to skydive but to have another amazing experience.

Each to thier own but this stiffo mandatory instructional bullshit you are on, was left behnd with the 90's.

Get with it!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[alabamaskydiver 0]

As for Ohio read the thread in GS about a sad day for tandems.

In the US FAR Part 105 has a very unique line about INSTRUCTING the student on use of the deployment handles, again not applicable in the land downunder.

BUT

Your DZ, I think, makes my point. Your DZ was founded as a carnival ride. There is no provisions for advancing throught the student program. Of course being a tourist atraction would mean people are going to flock to it, like the amphatheator is a point of interest for large groups of tourists.

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

As for Ohio read the thread in GS about a sad day for tandems.

In the US FAR Part 105 has a very unique line about INSTRUCTING the student on use of the deployment handles, again not applicable in the land downunder.

......................................................................

My "reading between the lines" was that Strong and Booth used that phasing to sneak tandem in under the same sort of regulation as two-seater ultralight airplanes.
We all know that "instruction" on ultralights is minimal during most "introductory" flights. Most ultralight "students" are far too busy waving to friends and taking pictures, so they tell the ultralight instructor "no you fly the airplane."

The FAA was surprised by the huge success of tandems.
When they finally got around to legalizing tandems - under TSO C23D - the FAA rep said "If I had know that tandem would become so popular, I never would have granted a waiver in the first place."

So now we have to ask ourselves whether back-loop exits, etc are motivated by consumer-pull or seller-push?

• Quote

[riggerrob 643]

"... I don't even tell them to arch, I tell them to try to relax and lt the relative wind put thier arms and legs in place.

..................................................................

Agreed!

I tell tandem students to relax into a small ball on the step, burst into the "giant banana" position, then relax their arms and legs because the wind will try to blow their arms and legs into the correct position.

Most stability problems are created by students working too hard in freefall.