How NOT to throw a drogue - video

[wildcard451 0]

JP - I think that the ideas of your post would actually make for an excellent piece for Parachutist or Blue Skies Mag, if you were willing to write it up as such.

[halorob 0]

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Man you guys are right that guy is a shitty tandem instructor we should look at getting him in trouble. No better yet lets kick his ass. No better yet lets kill him. He is a member of the Red Bull team they do nothing to help the sport they just take and take and think the rules don't apply to them. We could just line them up and take them all out at once. I have seen almost all of that guys exits and they all suck just as bad.

They no nothing about you Luke, just idiots that post on the internet. Keep on keepin on. See you at Kapowsin bro!

[halorob 0]

You know what pisses me off. I have met two very awesome people. Regardless of whether or not they are on Red Bull they have been outstanding teachers and instructors to me at kapowsin. Fuck all the nay sayers and JEALOUS MF'ers who wish they were on Red Bull. Just jump and STFU.

[halorob 0]

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Trouble is that if you live by the sword then you die by the sword...........

As TI's we have all fucked up and will continue to do so, but by sacrificing safety for "cool" then you are going to get criticised.

With all your jumps it shouldn't have taken a lot to work out the physics of how that would go.

As Red Bull AirForce you have access to a wider audience than most and therefore have a greater responsibility to be better.

In my eyes he prevented a situation not caused one. . . .

[halorob 0]

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Mr. Aikins Zero Point Zero....

Zero point zero is some funny shit.

The truth is, this could have gone very wrong. Rolling over like that with the drouge coming out is just asking for it to get wrapped around something. Not caught on a foot, which could be kicked off, but wrapped, as in never coming off and making for some real trouble later on when handles start getting pulled. We've all seen the video of the drouge wrapped around the jumpers neck.

The problem here is that any way you slice it, the TI fucked up. If the guy in the suit was an experienced jumper or a first timer, the plan should have been for a stable exit, hands on harness and legs in between the TI, follwed by a clean drouge throw and then start rocking out for camera.

Regardless of who was in the suit, it needed to be stressed that a clean exit was essential, and that any sort of 'antics' were to be reserved for after the TI had signaled that it was appropriate.

As for the TI or their qualifications, that should be of no consequence. If your claim is that there is a level of expereince that makes the roll-over to drouge toss OK, then you are way off base. That roll should have been unintentional, unwanted, and a wake up call to the TI. If it was anything but that, the TI, regardless of their experience needs their rating pulled. No circumstance on earth would make planning that manuver acceptable.

Rating pulled? WTF, this shit goes on ever day. I watched it happen to my wife when she did her tandem. At a different DZ, but WTF ever. SKY GODS. Maybe I shouldn't be jumping my 150 either. GFUS.

[halorob 0]

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JP - I think that the ideas of your post would actually make for an excellent piece for Parachutist or Blue Skies Mag, if you were willing to write it up as such.

I'm sorry if I have pisssed a lot of you off with my recent posts. I am now going back into none post mode, Just fed up with some shit as of late. Blue skies to everyone. Can't wait to get back to the states to make some damn jumps. DEPLOYING SUCKS DICK!

[Andy9o8 2]

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Similarly, Jay Stokes has compiled a "tandem horror stories" video that is only supposed to be shown during TICC.

Uh, I heard it was lost.

[halorob 0]

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I'd say the point to be taken here is that EVERY TI out there can and probably has tanked an exit. It happens. I am VERY sure that the TI in this video is aware of the risks involved with an unstable drogue toss and doesn't need a crucifixion to learn a lesson about it here.

However, here is a lesson on controlling our media collectively as a sport. Why a major company like Red Bull who has resources to spare, or even an individual who doesn't would put a mistake out there like this for public consumption is confusing.

Not only can it have the effect of endorsing "cowboy" behavior in the eyes of those don't know any better, but it opens up the door of liability.

I've worked for DZ's that don't care about the product that leaves the video room, and in this say of public media access I think that is a scary position. Other DZ's will have a "video mal" if something not suitable for public consumption is shot.

The bigger challenge these days is every Joe on the DZ has a GoPro on their head and many have no judgment about what is sensible to post, and what should be kept under tight wraps. Too often it's an ego and a desire to "have the cool shot" that prevail.

Does the hypothetical person with the great shot of the airplane diving after a tandem exit realize that the N-number is visible? The FAA has already told our people at USPA HQ that they are looking at social media sites including YouTube. They have commented on winsuits flying by tandems, they pointed out that tandem demos into stadiums are against FAA policy. There are eyes out there, and they are not limited to the FAA.

Glad to see someone has something useful to say. I've always liked your posts though. So that says something to the least.

[livendive 8]

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I have seen almost all of that guys exits and they all suck just as bad.

Have your eyes closed the first few times?

I'm not going to try to give Luke advice on doing tandems, as he knows far more about them than I do. But for those TIs who haven't figured it out yet, the drogue does not have to come out immediately upon exit. Take your time, get stable, deploy the drogue smoothly and calmly. I'd rather see delays approaching 10 seconds than 1 second any day of the week. Almost every one of the bad throws I've seen have been, first and foremost, premature.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[riggerrob 643]

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Similarly, Jay Stokes has compiled a "tandem horror stories" video that is only supposed to be shown during TICC.

Uh, I heard it was lost.

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I have a copy of Jay Stokes' "tandem horrors" video, but only show it during TICC.

[diablopilot 2]

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JP - I think that the ideas of your post would actually make for an excellent piece for Parachutist or Blue Skies Mag, if you were willing to write it up as such.

I'll give it a shot when I'm not busy relocating...

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Similarly, Jay Stokes has compiled a "tandem horror stories" video that is only supposed to be shown during TICC.

Uh, I heard it was lost.

.................................................................

I have a copy of Jay Stokes' "tandem horrors" video, but only show it during TICC.

Rob. You're confused. You lost the tape. And that was the last copy. Anywhere.

[skydog 2]

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Trouble is that if you live by the sword then you die by the sword...........

As TI's we have all fucked up and will continue to do so, but by sacrificing safety for "cool" then you are going to get criticised.

With all your jumps it shouldn't have taken a lot to work out the physics of how that would go.

As Red Bull AirForce you have access to a wider audience than most and therefore have a greater responsibility to be better.

In my eyes he prevented a situation not caused one. . . .

You must have watched a different video to me then. Large costume, big head, spread arms, TI with no drag arms and legs, smaller than the passenger......And when it went over he should have waited to bring it round before pitching the drogue.......

But hey...

Journey not destination.....

[davelepka 4]

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Rating pulled? WTF, this shit goes on ever day. I watched it happen to my wife when she did her tandem. At a different DZ, but WTF ever. SKY GODS. Maybe I shouldn't be jumping my 150 either. GFUS.

Look pal, if you read what I wrote, I said that if I TI had planned to do a roll-over drouge toss, his rating should be pulled. Doing that intentionally is a MAJOR safety risk, and any TI who thinks that risk is acceptable, should not be a TI.

Everyone has a bad exit on occasion. It happens once, you're surprised. The same thing happens twice, you need to take a hard look at how and why. If it happens a thrid time, you need to seek some remedial training.

I don't know shit about you, but the last line of your post is very telling. You jump a 150, and believe it to be a possible point of contention.

First off, I would advise anyone who cannot reasonably defend their gear choices from a safety standpoint to really reconsider those choices. If you're in a situation that others might view as dangerous, they're probally right. Other people have nothing to lose with relation to your equipment choices, so if they should make it their business, that in itself should mean something.

Second, the above statement, and lack of info on your profile leads me to believe that you're not a high time jumper. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that what you've seen at your local DZ is the end all, be all of skydiving, Things are done many different ways in many different places, with many of them being successful. It's a big world out there, and there's alot more going on then in your neck of the woods. Be open to that idea.

Lastly, I didn't see anyone getting down on Kapowsin. I don't think anyone really got down on the TI in the video. Some errors were pointed out, but the overall (and my) impression seemed to be that the rool-over was unintentional, and unwanted, and most addressed it as such.

[AggieDave 6]

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I said that if I TI had planned to do a roll-over drouge toss, his rating should be pulled.

What about a back-lay-out drogue toss? Do you personally have the same feelings?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[emmiwy 0]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykI4fhFhK9w&fmt=18

Does anyone else not find it funny that the mascot can't yell through the big helmet head? He looks really happy and is jumping up and down but he can't vocalize his reaction. :)

Anyway...back to this being a serious thread.

[davelepka 4]

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What about a back-lay-out drogue toss? Do you personally have the same feelings?

I think so. If the TI exits facing the tail, and completes the back loop into a stable, into the wind position, and then throws the drouge, I call no harm no foul.

If the drouge toss occurs halfway though the roll, the TI is counting on the roll to continue on-axis for a clean drouge deployment. If the roll should fall off-axis, the chance for an entaglement occurs.

I think one of the mistakes some TIs make when they think it's OK to toss mid back loop is that they're comparing it to the BASE version, or the even the solo skydiving version of the same manuver. The key difference, however, is that when you use that manuver in the case of an actual deployment, you intend to over rotate the back loop, beyond belly to the wind, into being 'sat-up' by the canopy for the opening. Seeing as you plan to over rotate anyway, your 'window' for when you get the PC toss in during the manuver is larger. Even if you toss late, and rotate past belly to the wind, all you've done is sat yourself upright, instead of letting the canopy do it.

If a TI over-rotates, or throws late in the roll, they could either loop again or fall off to the side, both moves being across the deploying drouge bridle.

None of this mentions the 'student' factor in all of this. Any sort of 'timing crucial' manuvers like these shouldn't be attempted with an unknown quantity like a student. Who's to say they won't start swimming on the hill? Now you're off axis, and the student is flailing their arms and legs around to boot.

That said, it's a popular move, and I've filmed many, many TI pull it day in and day out. It's one of things that are fine right up until it's not, at which point it will be very un-fine, and things will start to happen much faster than anyone intended.

[pchapman 279]

It's funny how Aikins comes on here and, maybe being a little defensive, does this great impersonation of a total asshole who doesn't care about the rules or his actions...

which in turn makes it looks like he is exactly that and thinks exactly that, confirming some stereotypes of Red Bull jumpers.

If we were all standing around the campfire this would all probably get sorted out with a little more laughter and beer.

Even if we tandem instructors all have our bad drogue toss stories, for what it is worth, it was still a bad drogue toss.

[LukeAikins 0]

I got a call and was told to check out this thread I don't come on here very often and don't take myself very serious. But when I saw which way this thread was going I thought I would give you all what you want by fanning the fire a bit. I know how much people love to talk shit and I am always in for talking shit especially when it is about me because who knows more shit about me then me. Anyone who thinks this exit and drogue toss was intentional is an idiot and does not know me. If they have not ever had a bad exit and toss then they have not jumped enough. When you know that the ride is only going to get wilder some times you make a quick call and stop it, right or wrong you learn from your choice for the next time. Now lets talk more shit when they open the door of the plane from the inside it looks like a Caravan but when they jump it is an Otter whats up with that.

[piisfish 140]

Thanks for chiming in Luke.
on the video it indeed seemed to me that the roll was NOT intentional, and the drogue toss got "caught in the middle of it".

He who never had anything unintentional happen to him can continue throwing rocks at us mere mortals.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[halorob 0]

Is there a required time to throw out the drogue? What is optimal? Also, if one does encounter a knarly spin on exit what is the EP? Sorry for being a douche earlier.

[timmyfitz 0]

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they pointed out that tandem demos into stadiums are against FAA policy.

Where might that be in the FAR's?

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Does the hypothetical person with the great shot of the airplane diving after a tandem exit realize that the N-number is visible? The FAA has already told our people at USPA HQ that they are looking at social media sites including YouTube.

I didn't see a darn thing in that video the FAA would care about.

[zoobrothertom 5]

I've watched and watched and watched this about 30 times.

I'm still not sure the TI induced the roll over in the manner as described above.

Watch how the TI has his right leg stiff and up into the wind. It's possible he was fighting a roll over and then finally realized he just couldn't stop it. Or, perhaps in the alternative, he was at the edge of control on stopping the roll over and decided to take control and just go ahead and finish it instead of waiting for it to possibly happen.

He makes a solid underhand pitch in the direction of roll and pulls it off. Albeit, not cleanly.

Was he good or good and lucky?

Just my 2 cents.

BTW, has the TI chimed in. I didn't see any posts that directly state he was the TI.

Cheers

____________________________________
I'm back in the USA!!

[skydiverek 63]

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Is there a required time to throw out the drogue?

I believe at UPT it was six seconds, if possible.