taking tandem students wingsuiting

[dgskydive 0]

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Who wants to start the laundry list of idiotic things that occurred in that video?

Other then chasers that can't exit stable? How about punching clouds AND pitching that drouge right in the middle of the clouds?

Dom

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Like you said, they don't know the difference so why are we so concerned about them understanding the added risk if the don't understand the basic risks.

Exactly, if I follow you correctly. They are unaware of the factors that increase or decrease their risk exposure. It's our duty to manage their risks for them.

[danielcroft 2]

Agreed. My point was in response to the sentiment that it was somehow worse that the student didn't understand the risks of wingsuiting. What the student understands is irrelevant. What the instructor understands is the important part. If they don't understand the extra risks of what they're doing then they shouldn't be even putting a standard harness on a student let alone making tandem wingsuit flights.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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If he had did this with one of my friends or relatives. I would have them sue him for everything he is worth.

Whatcha gonna do with a beat up trailer, a P.O.S. car, and half a medium pizza?

[airtwardo 7]

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If he had did this with one of my friends or relatives. I would have them sue him for everything he is worth.

Whatcha gonna do with a beat up trailer, a P.O.S. car, and half a medium pizza?

Car...What car?!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[normiss 798]

Golf cart if you're lucky.

[davelepka 4]

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My point was in response to the sentiment that it was somehow worse that the student didn't understand the risks of wingsuiting. What the student understands is irrelevant

That is incorrect. What the student understands is that they are at an established dropzone where they are offering tandem skydives to the general public with a minnimum of training for the student.

The assumption the student rightly makes is that the tandem skydive itself has been tested and developed to the point that it involves the minnimum risks possible within the realm of making a skydive. Everyone knows that skydiving has risks associated with it, but the assumption once it is extended to the general public is that the risks have been minnimized to the highest possible degree. This is why we have tandem instructional ratings, specailized equipment, required AADs and RSLs, and specialized procedures for conducting tandem jumps.

We you introduce an untested methodology, such as freeflying or wingsuiting, you are failing in your duty as a 'professional' skydiving company to offer a 'professional' level of service.

There was a time when tandem jumping itself was an experiment, and in fact the FAA regarded every tandem jump as 'experimental' for a long time before they would aknowledge that two people could make a safe skydive with one dual parachute system. Those days are long past, and with our current level of experience and knowledge with tandem jumping, there is no excsue for any operator to force an unlicensed jumper back into the role of making an 'experimental' jump.

Given the number of ways that donning two wingsutis changes the procuderes for making a tandem jump, there needs to be extensive testing and develpoment of a new set of standards and practices for making such a jump. Note the existance such standards and practices for making a solo wingsuit jump as they differ from making a non-winfsuit solo jump. Even then, the differences between a solo with and without a wingsuit are less than the differnces between standard and wingsuit tandem jumps.

Without the development of such standards and practices, and a system for teaching a rating instructors to use them, you as a tandem operator are failing your customer by putting forth a wingsuit tandem as being a 'safe' way to make a skydive, when it is anything but.

[Ron 10]

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What the student understands is irrelevant.

So if you didn't know this was a bad idea it would be fine for me to talk you into it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HZ-AW3Jmzc

(BTW that is really a fake)

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[danielcroft 2]

I asked earlier if, with appropriate training and certification, people would feel that wingsuit tandems were ok. I you seem to be saying yes? I really don't think we're saying anything that different here Dave. You're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that the student should understand that, while skydiving is dangerous, all precautions have been taken to make the skydive as safe as possible. I think you're also saying that without years of testing, training, development and certification, there's no way that tandem wingsuiting can be a safe as possible because there are too many unknowns. The point I was making (I guess poorly ) was that, if that work had been done and the instructor understood wingsuit tandem flight as well as a regular tandem skydive and had been trained then there's no difference to the student whether it's a wingsuit tandem or not. The critical factor(s) is that the instructor understands the risks and has been trained to deal with them in an appropriate manner.

[danielcroft 2]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HZ-AW3Jmzc (clicky...)

Only if I'm doing the shooting mate.

Seriously though, that analogy doesn't hold. We're not talking about someone saying 100% safe or 100% unsafe. We're talking about 90% (I guess, I'm no TI!) known as compared to 10% known risks. So, maybe shooting the watermelon with a bow & arrow from close range and then saying that the 50 cal was fine too.

[davelepka 4]

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The point I was making (I guess poorly ) was that, if that work had been done and the instructor understood wingsuit tandem flight as well as a regular tandem skydive and had been trained then there's no difference to the student whether it's a wingsuit tandem or not. The critical factor(s) is that the instructor understands the risks and has been trained to deal with them in an appropriate manner.

If the work had been done, and techniques developed to deal with the unique challenges created wingsuits on a tandem to the degree that the factories supported the idea, then in that case, yes, it is really only the instructor who needs to understand that full scope of the risks being taken by adding wingsuits to a tandem skydive.

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You're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that the student should understand that, while skydiving is dangerous, all precautions have been taken to make the skydive as safe as possible.

Yes, that is also correct. The student obvisouly does not know the 'ins and outs' of even the most pedestrian tandem jump, but what they should be able to understand is that this product we're selling has been fully tested and is ready to be 'brought to market'.

For the jumps in question here, none of the above has been done.

[Scrumpot 1]

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...there's no difference to the student whether it's a wingsuit tandem or not.

Okay, fine. If we accept that statement on its very surface, and its own merits ...then, ...why bother / for what possible conceivable good purpose is there, to even add a wingsuit to a STUDENT tandem at all, in the 1st place?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[dgskydive 0]

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Okay, fine. If we accept that statement on its very surface, and its own merits ...then, ...why bother / for what possible conceivable good purpose is there, to even add a wingsuit to a STUDENT tandem at all, in the 1st place

There isnt...other then to feed the ego of the TI. to be able to tell all his friends that he did a tandem wingsuit jump. The student not only does not understand all the extra danger, but if you look at the video they really arent getting much out of the suit. I mean shit, if a few freeflyers can keep up with them without getting into a full track. What is they point other then the TI's ego?

Dom

[Skyper 0]

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There isnt...other then to feed the ego of the TI. to be able to tell all his friends that he did a tandem wingsuit jump.

plus 1

[danielcroft 2]

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Okay, fine. If we accept that statement on its very surface, and its own merits ...then, ...why bother / for what possible conceivable good purpose is there, to even add a wingsuit to a STUDENT tandem at all, in the 1st place?

Because the customer demanded it. I'm not saying they did and I've really been playing (annoying) devil's advocate on this topic. There are more and more proximity flying videos floating around the web and I'm not going to be surprised if people start asking about it. The fact is that they really don't know what risks are at play and don't know any better.

Do I think that taking a tandem student on a wingsuit tandem is a good idea? No.

[normiss 798]

I don't give a fuck what a customer DEMANDS.

They pay for a skydive with the risk reduced as much as possible.
They get the experience of a skydive.
They want to wingsuit?
Get a license and get the experience.
A kid with a fresh driver's license doesn't get to drive an F-1 race just because he wants to.

[davelepka 4]

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Because the customer demanded it. I'm not saying they did and I've really been playing (annoying) devil's advocate on this topic. There are more and more proximity flying videos floating around the web and I'm not going to be surprised if people start asking about it.

This is, by far, the worst argument you have made on behalf of the devil. Despite the old adage, in this business, the customer is not always right.

How many customers would have wanted to jump in questionable wind conditions, well past sunset, or when factors involving their health or physicality made it prohibitive? My guess is quite a few, but as is the standard practice, it is explained that the jump cannot be completed with the 'usual' level of safety, and they are politely refused service.

The customer has certain level of say-so in this business, but when it comes to conducting jump operations, they have none. They deserve, and should insist on being treated fairlyand with respect, and honesty when it comes to the financial aspects. When it comes to how, when, and where the skydive will be conducted, their only input is to what will not happen, not what will happen. They have the right to say they will not jump for any reason, but not the right to say how they will jump in any respect.

[danielcroft 2]

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This is, by far, the worst argument you have made on behalf of the devil.

I'm not sure you are aware of the universe of bad arguments I've made on behalf of the Devil...

Seriously though, I haven't been arguing this whole time to just make the point that the customer might have asked to go wingsuiting. I was arguing to understand what the actual objections were. I think I've got that now.

As for the customer demanding it, as a community we'd tell them to go away, individual businesses do all of the things you're equating this to and more. You are right though.

[strop45 0]

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I see photos of the jump, but where's the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlAWodtw3ps

Skip to 7:40

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but this does not appear to be video of the original jump under discussion - For all we know these two could both be experienced wingsuit pilots?

Thats a whole different discussion.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[koppel 4]

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A kid with a fresh driver's license doesn't get to drive an F-1 race just because he wants to.

Guess all those little rich kids over in Cali-fairy-land driving around in Porches, Sports Mercedes and Corvettes etc have only got them because they learnt to drive on the race circuit in F-1 cars first then hey.

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They pay for a skydive with the risk reduced as much as possible.

Best way to reduce the risk is for them not to go. In fact lets take away Tandems and say if people want to WS, FS, FF, CP, CReW then they must become real students but I guess that option doesn't work either cos there is still a risk. Hmmm, I see a nice cushioned Nanny State in your future.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[Skyper 0]

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A kid with a fresh driver's license doesn't get to drive an F-1 race just because he wants to.

u don't need driving licence to drive F-1. That road is private property and you can drive/ride whatever you want.

[swoopgaz 0]

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If he had did this with one of my friends or relatives. I would have them sue him for everything he is worth.

SUE SUE SUE, SUE HIM FOR EVERYTHING.

Gotta love that attitude hey

Harden the fuck up and preach somewhere else

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[ShayneH 0]

Hi folks,

I guess my question to everyone is: why does the risk matter to you? As long as they are both fully aware of the risks, and they are not jeopardizing the safety of anyone else, let them do as they wish.

People all around the world intentionally put their lives in danger for excitement/entertainment/fun. Regardless of their motives, as long as it doesn't effect you, who are you to step up and tell them they can't have fun? Hell, I bet when sport parachuting first came out, there were average citizens and FAA folks alike who jumped out of their seats yelling "Blasphemy!" But again, who are they to say we can't put a parachute on and endanger our lives for a little excitement? I suppose that's why we live in a free country.

The ONLY reason I can fathom for not allowing such a stunt would be the preservation of dropzones in a sue-happy country. I am honestly sicked by the mindset of people looking to either make a point or a quick buck by suing others. But that's another topic...

[dgskydive 0]

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I guess my question to everyone is: why does the risk matter to you? As long as they are both fully aware of the risks, and they are not jeopardizing the safety of anyone else, let them do as they wish.

Because it is bad for the sport when one of these guys dies. The student in no way can truly understand the extra risk of a wingsuit tandem. For the most part they dont understand the real danger in doing a normal tandem.

Hell a few years back TI's were having a hard time keeping people in the harness without them falling out in freefall.

Dom

[ShayneH 0]

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For the most part they dont understand the real danger in doing a normal tandem.

Seriously? They're whuffos jumping out of an airplane that think a parachute wont even open if not properly packed right. If anything, they exaggerate the dangers in their own mind.

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Hell a few years back TI's were having a hard time keeping people in the harness without them falling out in freefall.

This is about as hypocritical to your own point as it gets. Do you think that these guys listened to people gripe and tell them how dangerous it is? Or do you think that they did it anyways out of love of the sport and a vision of making it safer? *Flash forward to today*

Point is, every discipline (including the original sport itself) has come under scrutiny from people who oppose it for whatever reason. But without those who find passion in pursuing these new challenges and thankfully not being discouraged by the negative people out there, this sport wouldn't have evolved to become what it is today -- both safer and a broader range of disciplines.