Thoughts on head down tandem?

[DARK 0]

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An old subject. I am linking to our position on "Head Down" Tandem published back in 1998.
http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TANDEM&PageID=TANDHEADDOWN&SortBy=TITLE_A
Racer Tandem harnesses will withstand a terminal drogue deployment.

SO out of curiosity, do other manufacturers say that their harnesses wont survive a terminal DROGUE deployment?

I can understand the point of view that says you are going to burn through drogues and possibly bridals and kill lines if you do this regularly but to say that the harness is not made for terminal sounds a bit crazy to me.

Aren't they supposed to survive a terminal reserve opening with only one attachment point hooked up?

[jamiesmum 0]

Just another note in case anyone is interested in what happened next, we are in Empuria (again - good to be back) and Jamie, having turned 16 on March 7th has just done his AFF - this is what Nigel (Holland) kindly said about it:

Just did the most amazing AFF Level 7 with 16 year old Jamie Arnold.
Linked Head down exit, belly star, compressed accordion, open accordian, back layout, sitfly with grip, then a game of 'rock, paper, scissors' with time to spare.....all with alti checks

He's now on his way back to do FF and Dynamic at the World Challenge and then straight back out for consoles

Thank you everyone xx

[GoneCodFishing 24]

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Linked Head down exit, belly star, compressed accordion, open accordian, back layout, sitfly with grip, then a game of 'rock, paper, scissors' with time to spare.....all with alti checks

Lol! Awesome! You know the rules though, if there ain't video it didn't happen. Post it up so we punters can cry

[toolbox 0]

>increases the risk of a student jump.

I agree.
I have actually thrown a drogue after about a three second delay and it failed,complete self destruct,nothing left.
It was a very intense experience to say the least.
Now imagine throwing the drogue after being head down for twenty seconds and having it fail.
Doesn't sound fun at all to me.
It seems there are alot of people out there who do not give the tandem skydive the proper level of caution that it deserves.
Sounds like we both share the philosophy that a tandem is not just another skydive.
I have more respect and caution for tandems now at over 13,000 of them, than I did when I was new,and I've had a cautious approach to them from the beginning.

[BMFin 0]

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I have actually thrown a drogue after about a three second delay and it failed,complete self destruct,nothing left.

Hope you learned a thing or two about gear maintenance.

[toolbox 0]

So you think well maintained or new gear can't fail?
I have also had a main canopy with less than 50 deployments,and packed by a very competent individual, rip in half, deployed at a slower than average fall rate, with a tall skinny student who was about 145lbs strapped to my chest.
Gear can fail,even if it is well maintained and used properly.
Thats why you do not push the limits on tandem gear.

[stratostar 5]

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It seems there are alot of people out there who do not give the tandem skydive the proper level of caution that it deserves.
Sounds like we both share the philosophy that a tandem is not just another skydive.

It's a generational thing, you are a pre "mainstreaming" vs the post "mainstreaming" of the sport. You can thank a number of things for creating this mindset we so prevalent in today's industry.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[BMFin 0]

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So you think well maintained or new gear can't fail

They can, but I think most of the times there was something wrong with the gear if it cannot tolerate the usage it was designed for. Either the problem was there to begin with, or the gear wasnt properly maintained.

Im quite suprised if you think a tandem drogue shouldnt be designed and maintenced to tolerate a 3 second delay.

Personally I think all tandem drogues should be designed to tolerate a drogue throw from drogueless terminal speeds. (which to my experience is not much different if the tandem is headdown or on its belly)

Sure, it adds some additional stress to the gear, but the gear should be designed and maintanced to tolerate a reasonable amount of extra stress.

[toolbox 0]

I agree that a 3 second delay should'nt blow up a drogue.
But it did.
If you ask anyone who has worked with me they will tell you that I am a gear check fanatic,and try my best to adhere to procedure.
I pride myself in being noncomplacent.
You are right that most likely there was something wrong with the blown drogue that slipped by,but packers,TI's,everyone is human,and we can,and will miss things and make mistakes.
This is why we follow procedures and try our best to keep it tame when it comes to taking care of business.
The business of tandem is safety above all else.

[jamiesmum 0]

here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEK2NmVhVXo&feature=share

[normiss 798]

cricky

[robinheid 0]

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Those were weird looking goggles

They're "over" goggle, designed for spectacle wearer.

My concern is the kid didnt even look ac little Jazzed by the jump.

Friggin hard to impress some kids.

Indeed. Check out this one.


44

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[markovwgti 0]

What i really find comical is that this 16 year old kid WILL and CAN outfly 80% of the internet skydivers posting on here about them.....

[Squeak 17]

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here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEK2NmVhVXo&feature=share

Jamie did great

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[GoneCodFishing 24]

Oh my God! HIS CHOO LAIS WAS ANTYED!!!

Ha, ha. Very good, indeed.

[davelepka 4]

That did look like a great jump.

However, please be aware (and more importantly, make sure your son is aware), that skydiving and tunnel flying are two very different things with two very different levels of responsibility. That responsibility is, of course, related to his own safety, but also the safety of those around him in the aircraft, in freefall, and under canopy.

While the tunnel time has made him comfrtable flying in a high speed airstream, the freefall portion of the jump is really the least important in terms of skills, performance or safety. More or less, if you can fall fairly stright down and remain stable at pull time, you have succeeded in a making a 'safe' freefall.

Conducting yourself in and around the aircraft, and your behavoir under canopy are the areas that will have th most effect on your personal safety (and that of those around you), and the tunnel training has no bearing in those areas.

It's important for your son to remember that when he evelauates his 'position' as a jumper, his number of actual jumps is the measure of that. Even if he proves to be above average in all the non-tunnel related areas when he has 100 jumps, he is still just an above average jumper with 100 jumps. His freefall skills may be that of a jumper with 500 jumps (or more), and he may be ahead of the curve in other areas, but he shouldn't engaging in activites beyond that of a jumper with 100 jumps.

I say this because it's proven to be a problem in skydiving, success in the tunnel notwithstanding. Newer jumpers with no tunnel time, who are not even above average have trouble recognizing and acting within their personal limitations. Young males being the worst offenders.

I'm sure his instructors are aware of this, and hopefully drilling it into his head that he needs to actively work to avoid those pitfalls, but I thought it was worth repeating.

[douwanto 22]

VERY WELL SAID Dave......

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[jamiesmum 0]

Hi, thanks for the advice. This trip was four years in the planning. Jamie has been surrounded by the very best instructors all of whom have been impressing on him the differences. This jump was carefully planned and a one off. He is set up to spend the entire summer focusing on belly flying. The plan is to aim for a couple of hundred jumps over the summer all carefully controlled and he is going to be moving on to learning FS. There are no plans for him to start doing freefly until his canopy handling skills are well and truly up to it. The reason I agreed to him learning at 16 is that I can then control who he is jumping with and where and he knows how serious things are and if for one minute he began to try and get ahead of himself i would stop him flying until he's eighteen. Jamie is very aware that he is responsible not just for himself but also for the safety of those around him and for the good name of the sport. If I was in any doubt whatsoever of his ability to behave i would not let him jump. I may not be a skydiver myself but members of my family are and sadly we have lost a couple of friends to this sport. We are under no illusions and neither is Jamie. At the end of the day though Jamie wants to fly and I am so grateful that people have been so supportive and made that possible for him.

Just in passing this is some footage his team mate just posted of them training for the dynamic: https://vimeo.com/63438058

[davelepka 4]

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This jump was carefully planned and a one off

Just to repeat, the jump that was posted really did look great. The exact manuvers planned for any jump simply depend on the skills of the jumper. In a student jump scenario like that one, the manuvers take a back seat to altitude awareness and stability at pull time, both of which were spot on.

[jamiesmum 0]

Just another post note

The World Challenge just finished

Jamie competed in two events

His team Volosity Freefly came 5th in the freefly

His team The Dynamos came 4th in the dynamic

He plans to do AAA next year

Thanks

Jamie's Mum

[stayhigh 2]

So what did you do after drogue got blown to dust???

Did you still release main or did you go for reserve??

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[cloudtramp 0]

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Hope you learned a thing or two about gear maintenance.

^^^ Touche!

[jamiesmum 0]

another post note - he's now 16 and nearly 2 months and so far he has his A Licence, BPA CH1, FS1, FF1, FF2, CH2 and now his B Licence - but the best thing for me is when I get to see videos of his jumps and he looks SO happy

[the_raven 0]

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another post note - he's now 16 and nearly 2 months and so far he has his A Licence, BPA CH1, FS1, FF1, FF2, CH2 and now his B Licence - but the best thing for me is when I get to see videos of his jumps and he looks SO happy

You are one of the best moms in the entire world. Good for you and your son!! My mother works as a psychologist who assists parents dealing with mental/learning disabilities. It is not easy at all and I'm glad Jamie found something he can be passionate about. Congrats.

[skygypsie 2]

On my 1st Skydive Anniversary jump, my husband took me on a head down tandem.

It was also my 60th jump, his 2800th; 1500 which were tandems, we own the gear...

We were drogueless & clocked at 200 mph, for 7 seconds before we went to neutral freefall.

My favorite jump ever

He does not do these at any other time nor with students.

It's our SPECIAL thing, just like the 6-1/2 back flips out the door