catfishhunter 2 #76 August 28, 2011 I'm not a TI so i could be wrong but I'm pretty darn sure you were all taught the same 3 S's but if your taught to land a passenger with 2 of the 3 failing then please share were that is taught. I do not believe that is an acceptable judgement call. I'm sorry that you feel it is. I hope it doesn't cause irreparable harm one day. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #77 August 28, 2011 Quote I'm not a TI Then you are not in the position to make the judgement call - which makes it so much easier to make it anyway on an internet-forum. Now I would have judged otherwise than this TI did - but I'm fully aware that I'm judging from pictures on the internet, not in the sometimes "gray area" of day to day tandemjumping where these judgements take place. Besides, for MY judgement I had the benifit of 2 points of (outside photo) view said tandemmaster did not have. My monday-morning-internet-judgement is also influenced by a prior experience 'many moons ago', with a wrongly attached steering toggle that separated from its control line. At 3000 ft I decided that there was more than enough wind to land this light weight passenger with the rear risers and that 3 lefts equal 1 right at my 1000 x 500m landing-area, full of high grass at that particular day. At 1000ft however, suddenly the wind was completely gone. I had to land with zero wind. The jump ended with a severely sprained ankle for the passenger. That was on a Master 425. Would have been worse on a modern canopy, I would think... Other than that, I don't worry to much about DZ.com discussions being quoted in court - but I conduct my business outside the USA. (You Americans should get tort reform on its way - but I guess that's a whole different discussion than this one...) What should be completely clear however in discussions like these is that the TI is not actually doing anything 'wrong' and that he should not be 'blamed' for his 'poor judgement'. The purpose of these discussions should be that the overall quality of judgements and decisions improves. Besides, even in Canada, a waiver was signed I would think... In my case, the passenger that sprained her ankle was completely blind. Can't help but thinking that to be funny, in retrospect - just picture the lawyer: "Your honour, my poor client couldn't have read the waiver they claimed she signed! It's an outrage!" "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ftp- 0 #78 August 29, 2011 Quote lots of people HAVE cut away and died. Care to share some data about this statement? Lots? Really, what percentage of cutaways ended that way to do you think? <1%?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #79 August 29, 2011 Exactly. Speak percentage-wise. Not "lots"-wise... "Lots" may mean 90% to one person, and 5% to another person. I think tkhays had a very rare occurance (reserve mal), and because of this 'trauma' he draws incorrect statistical conclusions (as in: odds of something happening). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #80 August 29, 2011 QuoteI'm not a TI... bingo! I have pulled a cutaway handle more than 20 times on tandem skydives. 2 of those times, i would have been better off NOT having pulled the cutaway handle. that's called experience. The decision tree for a tandem skydive is far more complex than it is for any other skydive. UPT published that decision tree 15 or so years ago. Not to mention the responsibility that goes with having a paying customer whose life you are expected to save when the time arises. Let's not oversimplify it unless you really know what you are talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #81 August 29, 2011 percentage today is lower than it was in years past. people still die cutting away, it is NOT always the best decision. Pete Luter cutaway at 300ft here at Z-Hills and died, I started skydiving with a guy named Paul who cutaway and went in. every year, someone chops too low, We had decades of a category called low-pull, no-pull reserve fatalities. Most people reading this forum have not been in the sport long enough to even remember why the RSL was invented. So yes, LOTS of people have died pulling a cutaway handle. But the thread was not about deaths was it? It was about the decision of cutting away versus NOT cutting away and some seem to think that this is a black and white decision, which it is not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #82 August 29, 2011 Quotepercentage today is lower than it was in years past. people still die cutting away, it is NOT always the best decision. Pete Luter cutaway at 300ft here at Z-Hills and died, I started skydiving with a guy named Paul who cutaway and went in. every year, someone chops too low, We had decades of a category called low-pull, no-pull reserve fatalities. Most people reading this forum have not been in the sport long enough to even remember why the RSL was invented. So yes, LOTS of people have died pulling a cutaway handle. But the thread was not about deaths was it? It was about the decision of cutting away versus NOT cutting away and some seem to think that this is a black and white decision, which it is not. But wouldn't cutting away too low be a operator error type thing and not really attributed to a reserve malfunction fatality? I wonder what the true percentage of fatalities during a cutaway is from a reserve malfunctioning is...as opposed to landing a malfunctioned main. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rover 11 #83 August 29, 2011 Quote Quote I'm not a TI... bingo! We had decades of a category called low-pull, no-pull reserve fatalities. *** You are mixing apples with pears here. First you are questioning someones experience because they are not a TI and then you are quoting non tandem incidents to back your position up. Tandems open at 5000+ feet so give more time for the TI to deal with issues. How many tandem low pull / no pull incidents have there been. I can't think of any?2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #84 August 29, 2011 Probably only a few, but the fact remains that it does happen, and the fact remains that in this scenario and MANY OTHER TANDEM SCENARIOS, the decision to cutaway or not is not black and white (trying to keep the discussion on track) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #85 August 29, 2011 QuoteProbably only a few, but the fact remains that it does happen, and the fact remains that in this scenario and MANY OTHER TANDEM SCENARIOS, the decision to cutaway or not is not black and white (trying to keep the discussion on track) Please post the decision tree and where in that tree THIS decisions falls in and I will gladly STFU but until then that canopy was not square and the lines were not straight..No need to go farther down the tree. That to me is pretty fucking black and white. As to using examples I am sure there are way more examples of these malfunctions turning to shit to low to cutaway and I bet the ones you stated above were because they flew a malfuncting parachute so low that when it went fuckall they were already dead. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #86 August 30, 2011 From 'hearsay' I know of a TI landing a malfunctioned reserve in a nearby river and almost getting himself and his passenger killed by drowning. So, that's at least one. But 'in the heath of the battle' somehow to me it seems better only to consider the possible inconvenience of a rig down, a search for the gear and a repack, not the possibility of 'plan B' failing also. YMMV "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #87 August 30, 2011 QuotePlease post the decision tree and where in that tree THIS decisions falls in and I will gladly STFU but until then that canopy was not square and the lines were not straight..No need to go farther down the tree. That to me is pretty fucking black and white. As to using examples I am sure there are way more examples of these malfunctions turning to shit to low to cutaway and I bet the ones you stated above were because they flew a malfuncting parachute so low that when it went fuckall they were already dead. The decision tree is available from UPT, go find it. The tandem fatalities and their causes are also readily available online, go research them. Someone asked for examples of low cutaways and I gave them. The discussion was originally about whether or not a 'non-cutaway' was a negligent decision and I gave real-life experiences of my own to back up my claim that on a tandem skydive, the decision may not always be black and white. I stand by that decision, my knowledge and my experience. Unless of course your 8 years in the sport and 900+ jumps somehow trumps my 30 years in the sport, 7500 jumps, 2600 tandems, almost all instructional ratings from 2 countries and the decades of experience of running 2 dropzones in two countries and overseeing some 1,000,000 skydives and probably 60,000 tandem jumps. I was not offering an argument, I was offering advice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #88 August 30, 2011 My bad I guess we are reading different threads as I am pretty sure this is about one specific (tandem)skydive MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #89 August 30, 2011 QuoteProbably only a few, but the fact remains that it does happen, and the fact remains that in this scenario and MANY OTHER TANDEM SCENARIOS, the decision to cutaway or not is not black and white (trying to keep the discussion on track) Point taken. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ftp- 0 #90 August 30, 2011 Quote Someone asked for examples of low cutaways and I gave them. Nobody said anything about a low cutaway. You said reserves malfunction and not everything is black and white. Given this TI had altitude and half his canopy was not inflated, he should have used his reserve. If you deny that, well I guess the next quote may be true... QuoteUnless of course your 8 years in the sport and 900+ jumps somehow trumps my 30 years in the sport, 7500 jumps, 2600 tandems.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #91 August 30, 2011 Quote and it is so nice that all this has been posted publicly so that when the student decides to sue, they have tons of evidence to present which implies that the TI made a bad decision. perfect. TK, I understand your concerns, and I really dislike skydiving lawsuits. But with all due respect, the logical extent to the standard you seem to be suggesting would be so much self-censorship that we might as well never have open and free-flowing discussions in any of the threads about incidents. I suppose we as a community have to decide whether, on balance, that's something we really want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydive2 1 #92 August 30, 2011 QuoteIt was a question... Don't blame me you are not smart enough to know the difference. yeah but it was a question that did not pertain to the thread at all!!! Lets say the tandem instructor did chop that, and his reserve did bag lock...do you think any skydiver in there right mind would question him cutting away?? We'd be discussing the rigger and the rigging error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #93 August 30, 2011 Quote do you think any skydiver in there right mind would question him cutting away?? I'd actually take odds on that. - FWIW.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #94 August 30, 2011 Quoteyeah but it was a question that did not pertain to the thread at all!!! You can't see how asking if it is relevant??? REALLY???? Fact is as TK has pointed out that in 20 tandem reserve rides he had two that he would have been better to keep the main (his words). So asking someone if they would have a different opinion of cutting away if this had ended with a worse reserve issue is relevant. I am honestly amazed you can't see that. QuoteWe'd be discussing the rigger and the rigging error And how, sometimes, parachutes just don't work correctly."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 36 #95 August 30, 2011 Quote There is no such thing as a perfectly good parachute. They can all malfunction. True http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tF6iXI70-Y&feature=player_embedded I saw this video a few hours ago...."My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VideoFly 0 #96 August 31, 2011 QuoteProbably only a few, but the fact remains that it does happen, and the fact remains that in this scenario and MANY OTHER TANDEM SCENARIOS, the decision to cutaway or not is not black and white (trying to keep the discussion on track) Having filmed many tandem jumps, the above statement is absolutely correct. The numbers of variables which may affect the outcome of correcting problems, which may be inherent to tandem jumps, are innumerable. With the addition of equipment, an inexperienced student with unpredictable and untrained behaviors, varying aerodynamics, and a whole realm of responsibilities to be dealt with, there are few black and white decisions to be made in the event of an unsmooth and faulty skydive. I have witnessed such occurrences and oftentimes, as TI’s work to remedy one problem, new ones may rapidly arise. In essence, emergency procedures on tandem skydives often turn into chains of potentially dangerous events. Subsequently, decisions to be made by tandem instructors are plentiful, which is why their training and preparation is so stringent. While I may have chopped the problematic main in question if I was on a solo skydive, the decision to be made in this case was based solely on the judgment of the trained and licensed TI. Additionally, the student made a well-informed and deliberate decision to trust and jump with that TI. All-too-often we condemn tandem skydiving for being treated as an amusement park ride, placing little to no responsibility for that condition to students’ behaviors and choices. When I was a student, I viewed every jump with a sincere note of seriousness, knowing the potential dangers involved and I am not sure that some tandem skydiving environments always project that attitude. Perhaps, for the sake of conducting a focused and productive discussion, this thread should concentrate on whether or not the reader would have chopped the main in question rather than whether or not the TI in this instance used good judgment in not chopping it. The TI was in control of that skydive. He made a conscious and assumingly well informed decision, which fell within the realm of prudent and possible choices based on many variables we may not be aware of. He did not outright violate BSR’s and in the end, he and his student own the outcomes of that skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #97 August 31, 2011 Quote I'm not a TI so i could be wrong Well I am a tandem master and I agree with you. In fact, I was in the process of chopping a tandem main once that looked just like that when the tension knots came undone. Lucky lucky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rover 11 #98 August 31, 2011 QuoteI have pulled a cutaway handle more than 20 times on tandem skydives. QuoteUnless of course your 8 years in the sport and 900+ jumps somehow trumps my 30 years in the sport, 7500 jumps, 2600 tandems, Let me get this right, 2600 tandems and 20 reserve rides, a 1 in 130 malfunction rate, with a 10% failure rate or problem on your reserve - your figures. These numbers don't sit comfortably with me. You or the organisation you work for are doing something seriously wrong. For the record I'm 5000+ jumps, 3000+ tandems with one chop & 2000 sports jumps with 3 chops. Anyone else out there that's had such bad luck as TK?2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ftp- 0 #99 August 31, 2011 Doesn't add up really. Either it's an exagguration, or the worlds crappiest rigger and packers follow him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #100 August 31, 2011 QuoteEither it's an exagguration, or the worlds crappiest rigger and packers follow him. Or TK could have been doing tandems many years ago when the mains were not as reliable as they have become in recent years. I have 3 tandem chops in 500-600(?) tandem jumps. And being multi rated, I can also say that all three were on the same brand system.... So really it is 3 chops in ~300-400 Tandems on that system. AND btw... All three were tension knots."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
