matthewcline 0 #51 February 8, 2012 QuoteYour right, you did and did not, others seem to want to continue. My apologies if you felt I was speaking to you directly. I think your reply would fir Squeeks as in Australia they want Tandem Jumping to be a "Carnival ride" for "Punters". This would then mean a new title for the Tandem Instructors, as they would not be Instructors, nor Tandem Masters for that matter. But that is Australia, I wouldn't worry about it. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #52 February 9, 2012 QuoteWhat is funny is how many of you late bloomers want to nitpick shit and start a fight with the one of the men who started it all. He comes on here and explains his thinking and idea from back in the day and why they choose to call the person on the front a student and not a pax or rider, and it's not good enough of an answer for you. Instead of acting like an ass to the man, you should be thankful he took the time to log in here and post and if you have done a tdm or had a friend or family member make a tdm jump, again you should thanking Mr. Booth & Ted Strong for their taking of the risk to test and build the systems and not starting a pissing contest over choosing to call someone a student and not a pax. The men had every good reason for using that word, so move along already! Im not nit picking Im addressing an assertion made that does not hold true across the board like it was implied. As to being thankful to Bill for his pioneering work in sport skydiving and Tandem operations. I have, do and will continue to support him and his company. I jump UPT gear and recommend it highly to up coming jumpers, often citing Bill dedication to improving the world of skydiving and consistently being an innovator in our sport.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rover 11 #53 February 9, 2012 Quote Quote Your right, you did and did not, others seem to want to continue. My apologies if you felt I was speaking to you directly. I think your reply would fir Squeeks as in Australia they want Tandem Jumping to be a "Carnival ride" for "Punters". This would then mean a new title for the Tandem Instructors, as they would not be Instructors, nor Tandem Masters for that matter. But that is Australia, I wouldn't worry about it. Matt Sorry bro, you're confusing Squeak for me. FYI I'm from NZ - and they're "units' now. And I don't know why all you Americans get so uptight about it. Get over it. Guess it's a cultural / ego thing. 2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #54 February 9, 2012 At least 2 of my former tandem 'passengers' possess medals won at national skydiving championships. I call them my students, therefore. The best argument however is the legal slippery slope that comes from getting into the business of areal passenger transport - as someone above me already mentioned. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #55 February 9, 2012 QuoteThe best argument however is the legal slippery slope that comes from getting into the business of areal passenger transport - as someone above me already mentioned I think the bit that perplexes the authorities a little is the fact that the riders don't actually land in the plane, whereas all their rules, regulations and thought processes are geared towards flight in an aircraft, from go to whoa... Their legal gurus can't seem to wrap their heads around this conflict, especially as a parachute is not classified as an aircraft.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #56 February 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteThe best argument however is the legal slippery slope that comes from getting into the business of areal passenger transport - as someone above me already mentioned I think the bit that perplexes the authorities a little is the fact that the riders don't actually land in the plane, whereas all their rules, regulations and thought processes are geared towards flight in an aircraft, from go to whoa... Their legal gurus can't seem to wrap their heads around this conflict, especially as a parachute is not classified as an aircraft. What ARE the regs...? Something about a single person dual parachute harness....?? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #57 February 9, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Your right, you did and did not, others seem to want to continue. My apologies if you felt I was speaking to you directly. I think your reply would fir Squeeks as in Australia they want Tandem Jumping to be a "Carnival ride" for "Punters". This would then mean a new title for the Tandem Instructors, as they would not be Instructors, nor Tandem Masters for that matter. But that is Australia, I wouldn't worry about it. Matt Sorry bro, you're confusing Squeak for me. FYI I'm from NZ - and they're "units' now. And I don't know why all you Americans get so uptight about it. Get over it. Guess it's a cultural / ego thing. All fun aside, they are Students, it says so on the UPT Harness. Plus it was the intent of both Bill and Ted, I not only have read this from them but spoke with them both at length I when was working ont eh Parachutist Article for USPA and with some of the BOD to try and level out all the requirements. Now, if the decision is that Tandem Jumping is to be a cash and carry carnival ride, I can live with that too, IF: Tandem Instructors lose the Title of Instructor (accept for in the other fields they may be rated in), they should then be called a Tandem Jump Operator, and since they would then be jumping for hire, treated as a pilot for hire. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #58 February 9, 2012 On my first jump, which was a tandem, I had ground instruction ahead of time, was expected to read the altimeter, initiate turns left and right, wave off, deploy, identify the DZ from the air, and use the toggles to steer. I would consider "student" an accurate description.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #59 February 10, 2012 Quote On my first jump, which was a tandem, I had ground instruction ahead of time, was expected to read the altimeter, initiate turns left and right, wave off, deploy, identify the DZ from the air, and use the toggles to steer. I would consider "student" an accurate description. For EVERY tandem jump? Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs"You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #60 February 10, 2012 QuoteQuote On my first jump, which was a tandem, I had ground instruction ahead of time, was expected to read the altimeter, initiate turns left and right, wave off, deploy, identify the DZ from the air, and use the toggles to steer. I would consider "student" an accurate description. For EVERY tandem jump? Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs" As far as I know, EVERY tandem jump at my home DZ involves the same instruction that I had. When my late wife made a tandem, that is what she did. When my current GF did a tandem there, that is what she did.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #61 February 10, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote On my first jump, which was a tandem, I had ground instruction ahead of time, was expected to read the altimeter, initiate turns left and right, wave off, deploy, identify the DZ from the air, and use the toggles to steer. I would consider "student" an accurate description. For EVERY tandem jump? Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs" As far as I know, EVERY tandem jump at my home DZ involves the same instruction that I had. When my late wife made a tandem, that is what she did. When my current GF did a tandem there, that is what she did.that does not even begin to answer my question.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #62 February 10, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote On my first jump, which was a tandem, I had ground instruction ahead of time, was expected to read the altimeter, initiate turns left and right, wave off, deploy, identify the DZ from the air, and use the toggles to steer. I would consider "student" an accurate description. For EVERY tandem jump? Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs" As far as I know, EVERY tandem jump at my home DZ involves the same instruction that I had. When my late wife made a tandem, that is what she did. When my current GF did a tandem there, that is what she did. that does not even begin to answer my question. Too bad.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #63 February 10, 2012 QuoteQuote On my first jump, which was a tandem, I had ground instruction ahead of time, was expected to read the altimeter, initiate turns left and right, wave off, deploy, identify the DZ from the air, and use the toggles to steer. I would consider "student" an accurate description. For EVERY tandem jump? Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs" It should be done for every jump, maybe not the turns on jump one, but all the rest, yes. In the US the "Cross your arms" thing was done away with in the 90's. It was found to promote de-arching and it, along with "leg locks", was a sign of poor instruction and bad Instructor Technique. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobMoore 0 #64 February 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote For EVERY tandem jump? Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs" As far as I know, EVERY tandem jump at my home DZ involves the same instruction that I had. When my late wife made a tandem, that is what she did. When my current GF did a tandem there, that is what she did.that does not even begin to answer my question. Okay, lets analyze this. For EVERY tandem jump? Yes, he said EVERY tandem jump at his DZ Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? Yes, he said "all had the same instruction as I had". What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs". At his DZ the packages had the same instruction as he had."For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #65 February 11, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote For EVERY tandem jump? Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs" As far as I know, EVERY tandem jump at my home DZ involves the same instruction that I had. When my late wife made a tandem, that is what she did. When my current GF did a tandem there, that is what she did. that does not even begin to answer my question. Okay, lets analyze this. For EVERY tandem jump? Yes, he said EVERY tandem jump at his DZ Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? Yes, he said "all had the same instruction as I had". What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs". At his DZ the packages had the same instruction as he had. except I wasn't asking the question you answered. I used the word EVERY (even put it in block letters for emphasis) purposely. I was and am asking if his assertion that the front mounted people on a tandem master are students; included EVERY front mounted person, or just those trained in a manner similar to his training. I DIDN'T ask if he meant only at his DZ.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #66 February 11, 2012 +1Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #67 February 11, 2012 I better not catch any of you guys ragging on Bill Clinton ever again for quibbling over the definition of "and". Jesus H. Christ, people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #68 February 11, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote For EVERY tandem jump? Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs" As far as I know, EVERY tandem jump at my home DZ involves the same instruction that I had. When my late wife made a tandem, that is what she did. When my current GF did a tandem there, that is what she did. that does not even begin to answer my question. Okay, lets analyze this. For EVERY tandem jump? Yes, he said EVERY tandem jump at his DZ Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? Yes, he said "all had the same instruction as I had". What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs". At his DZ the packages had the same instruction as he had. except I wasn't asking the question you answered. I used the word EVERY (even put it in block letters for emphasis) purposely. I was and am asking if his assertion that the front mounted people on a tandem master are students; included EVERY front mounted person, or just those trained in a manner similar to his training. I DIDN'T ask if he meant only at his DZ. Since no-one has observed EVERY (in capitals for emphasis) tandem jump ever made, your question is idiotic.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #69 February 11, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote For EVERY tandem jump? Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs" As far as I know, EVERY tandem jump at my home DZ involves the same instruction that I had. When my late wife made a tandem, that is what she did. When my current GF did a tandem there, that is what she did. that does not even begin to answer my question. Okay, lets analyze this. For EVERY tandem jump? Yes, he said EVERY tandem jump at his DZ Or just Tandems conducted in a manner similar to yours? Yes, he said "all had the same instruction as I had". What about the packages that meet their instructors on the way to the plane. Whose instruction consisted of "cross your arms and lift your legs". At his DZ the packages had the same instruction as he had. except I wasn't asking the question you answered. I used the word EVERY (even put it in block letters for emphasis) purposely. I was and am asking if his assertion that the front mounted people on a tandem master are students; included EVERY front mounted person, or just those trained in a manner similar to his training. I DIDN'T ask if he meant only at his DZ. Since no-one has observed EVERY (in capitals for emphasis) tandem jump ever made, your question is idiotic. No it's not, i didnt ask for anyone else's opinion, you asserted that they ARE students, I ask if you mean EVERY one is. I ask for your learned opinion, I'm sorry you consider that idiotic. Perhaps making a blanket statement is what's idiotic.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aarco 0 #70 February 16, 2012 The first line on buddy up gear was a military thing- there is still a lid on some of it-some people feel differint now days about money and tandems - but every lover of this sky likes calling a passanger a student- I realy fell away from that in Hawaii - but it always feel good - we did start doing tandems in most part for each other as a young sport - I would hate to think we all in a rush to make it an old one - Bill did do a hell of a thing with the Micron - Sigma - I do see six flag"" in the future - - but I still see us calling them students - everything can learn from everything - even when your angry - cause after anger comes luck then something new like - an fx - floating landings - wow Having something never beats doing (>|<) Iam building things - Iam working on my mind- I am going to change this world - its what I came here 4- - - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
